High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[corporatejay]

What is going on in this thread?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

What is going on in this thread?

I'm not entirely sure but I suspect we may be called to give evidence about it

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

At any rate I am going to step away from the thread. I have said my thoughts.

You probably should have actually done this

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No I have never had sex with a woman who was drunk or high, my grandfather drilled that into me in the 1960's, maybe he was an outlier, maybe it was that he only had one kid, my mum but he was clear with me, you dont sleep with drunk girls, you get them home safe, that's your duty as a man, a man that sleeps with drunk girls is a creepy ######bag, I'm 60 now and one of the things I'm kind of proud of is that as I look back on my decades of horn dog behaviour I never shagged any woman were I wasnt 100% clear she was making an informed choice.

You know there are married couples out there who get drunk, right? Or who first hooked up when they were both drunk and went on to get married. This weekend in Calgary, I expect many thousands of couplings will happen where both parties are drunk, and hundreds will be between drunk people on short acquaintance. Will they all be sexual assaults on the part of the person who initiates?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No I have never had sex with a woman who was drunk or high, my grandfather drilled that into me in the 1960's, maybe he was an outlier, maybe it was that he only had one kid, my mum but he was clear with me, you dont sleep with drunk girls, you get them home safe, that's your duty as a man, a man that sleeps with drunk girls is a creepy ######bag, I'm 60 now and one of the things I'm kind of proud of is that as I look back on my decades of horn dog behaviour I never shagged any woman were I wasnt 100% clear she was making an informed choice.

Again, I don't believe you. We are not talking a one night stand here, we are talking someone you are in a relationship with like Manson was. You have never gone to a wedding or event with your spouse or gf and had a few and then had sex? Absolute bs, every man on here has done that. Are we all rapists?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You probably should have actually done this

I was going to until afc started babbling ridiculous nonsense essentially calling every person who has ever had a few drinks and then slept with someone a rapist.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Are we all rapists?

No, but some certainly give off creepy vibes. Not naming names or anything.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I was going to until afc started babbling ridiculous nonsense essentially calling every person who has ever had a few drinks and then slept with someone a rapist.

That isn’t what they said or even implied.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Wormius

That isn’t what they said or even implied.

That is exactly what they implied.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Not being able to consent when consuming any alcohol or drugs and not being able to consent due to consuming too much alcohol or drugs are very, very different things.

AFC’s post was not clear which he meant. If it’s the former, that’s false. If the latter, that’s true.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That is exactly what they implied.

That's what you're inferring.

[Wormius]

Well, what I interpreted their comment as is if you’re sober don’t sleep with somebody is drunk or you’re at best a creep. I am not sure how it got to “if you’re drunk and then sleep with somebody you’re a rapist”.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Well, what I interpreted their comment as is if you’re sober don’t sleep with somebody is drunk or you’re at best a creep. I am not sure how it got to “if you’re drunk and then sleep with somebody you’re a rapist”.

That isn't what he said at all.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You know there are married couples out there who get drunk, right? Or who first hooked up when they were both drunk and went on to get married. This weekend in Calgary, I expect many thousands of couplings will happen where both parties are drunk, and hundreds will be between drunk people on short acquaintance. Will they all be sexual assaults on the part of the person who initiates?

How did you manage to miss the point so spectacularly?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That isn't what he said at all.

I have no idea what you’re reading then.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Not being able to consent when consuming any alcohol or drugs and not being able to consent due to consuming too much alcohol or drugs are very, very different things.

AFC’s post was not clear which he meant. If it’s the former, that’s false. If the latter, that’s true.

To add to this, many women choose to and enjoy consuming alcohol/drugs and then engaging in sexual activity. Not acknowledging that is pretty sexist.

[afc wimbledon]

Just so were clear I am not saying everytime a dude slept with a drunk or stoned girl it was rape, what I am saying is everytime it might have been and his arse is utterly hooped if she wakes up the next day with little memory of how the night went down and is horrified that she is in bed naked with a guy she's never seen before.

Every one of us guys has to decide how we navigate a rapidly changing world where the concept of consent has evolved and will continue to evolve on a case by case basis, none of this has anything to do with a woman's right to choose how they pursue their own sexuality, a woman has the absolute right to choose to be beaten bound and violently penetrated if they so choose, I just choose not to be the dude that takes the risk that I have to explain beating and penetrating a tied up woman, it helps that that isnt my thing anyway I suppose.

'Most of the time it was fine' is a poor legal and moral defense

[Itse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Just so were clear I am not saying everytime a dude slept with a drunk or stoned girl it was rape, what I am saying is everytime it might have been and his arse is utterly hooped if she wakes up the next day with little memory of how the night went down and is horrified that she is in bed naked with a guy she's never seen before.

That's a good clarificiation, but pretty different what you said before.

Every one of us guys has to decide how we navigate a rapidly changing world where the concept of consent has evolved and will continue to evolve on a case by case basis, none of this has anything to do with a woman's right to choose how they pursue their own sexuality, a woman has the absolute right to choose to be beaten bound and violently penetrated if they so choose, I just choose not to be the dude that takes the risk that I have to explain beating and penetrating a tied up woman, it helps that that isnt my thing anyway I suppose.

'Most of the time it was fine' is a poor legal and moral defense

I get where you're coming from, but I think this has a lot to do with what circles you move in.

I know from experience that when you're dating a woman with certain type of issues who has a problem with alcohol and who's totally into your whole "bad boy" thing, it can be basically impossible to draw nice clean lines between what's okay and what's not. You can lose sight of what's okay because SHE has even less of a clue what she actually wants and likes.


(The last part of this post not a response to anyone in particular.)

I have no idea what exactly was going on between ERW and MM. I assume that probably Manson did something wrong (at least morally if not legally) because of what ERW has said and what other people have said about his treatment of her.

However I don't see a reason to assume that MM did something wrong in literally every specific situation where ERW thinks he did wrong. That whole music video thing sounds like such a messy time for ERW that she might very well remember things completely different from how things actually happened. Memories are, after all, extremely unreliable. Both things could very well true at the same time; MM treated ERW horribly, but that one situation might not be one of those times.

I also don't think it really matters much whether this or that thing specifically happened exactly like ERW said, since this isn't a courtroom. I think people often get hung up in thinking that an abuser must have been a complete monster 100% of the time. That's not usually how life goes. Abusers aren't necessarily irredeemable monsters.

One big reason why people end up staying in abusive relationships is that the abuse usually isn't constant, and the abuser might even at times be genuinely sweet and caring. This is especially true if substance abuse is a related problem. Another common thing that happens in abusive relationships is that the abused develops some extremely bad behavior patterns, and trauma victims are also prone to develop false memories.

This is one reason why a good lawyer team can so often just tear abuse victims apart in court, and why it's so easy to discredit them in media. Their stories often aren't 100% consistent and they very commonly say some stuff that's certifiable false.

It doesn't mean they weren't abused.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Itse

That's a good clarificiation, but pretty different what you said before.




I get where you're coming from, but I think this has a lot to do with what circles you move in.

I know from experience that when you're dating a woman with certain type of issues who has a problem with alcohol and who's totally into your whole "bad boy" thing, it can be basically impossible to draw nice clean lines between what's okay and what's not. You can lose sight of what's okay because SHE has even less of a clue what she actually wants and likes.


(The last part of this post not a response to anyone in particular.)

I have no idea what exactly was going on between ERW and MM. I assume that probably Manson did something wrong (at least morally if not legally) because of what ERW has said and what other people have said about his treatment of her.

However I don't see a reason to assume that MM did something wrong in literally every specific situation where ERW thinks he did wrong. That whole music video thing sounds like such a messy time for ERW that she might very well remember things completely different from how things actually happened. Memories are, after all, extremely unreliable. Both things could very well true at the same time; MM treated ERW horribly, but that one situation might not be one of those times.

I also don't think it really matters much whether this or that thing specifically happened exactly like ERW said, since this isn't a courtroom. I think people often get hung up in thinking that an abuser must have been a complete monster 100% of the time. That's not usually how life goes. Abusers aren't necessarily irredeemable monsters.

One big reason why people end up staying in abusive relationships is that the abuse usually isn't constant, and the abuser might even at times be genuinely sweet and caring. This is especially true if substance abuse is a related problem. Another common thing that happens in abusive relationships is that the abused develops some extremely bad behavior patterns, and trauma victims are also prone to develop false memories.

This is one reason why a good lawyer team can so often just tear abuse victims apart in court, and why it's so easy to discredit them in media. Their stories often aren't 100% consistent and they very commonly say some stuff that's certifiable false.

It doesn't mean they weren't abused.

I would say it isnt in the sense that as a guy if you sleep with a girl who's drunk or high you might be sexually assaulting her even if you didnt mean too and aren't aware of it at the time, my whole point is you dont know and you wont find out until the next day, is it fair to guys?? hell no!! but its reality.

Sleeping with a drunk or high partner is the sexual equivalent of Schrödinger's cat, you don't know if that box contains a cop and a life long sentence or just a nice memory until you open it

[Itse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would say it isnt in the sense that as a guy if you sleep with a girl who's drunk or high you might be sexually assaulting her even if you didnt mean too and aren't aware of it at the time, my whole point is you dont know and you wont find out until the next day, is it fair to guys?? hell no!! but its reality.

Sleeping with a drunk or high partner is the sexual equivalent of Schrödinger's cat, you don't know if that box contains a cop and a life long sentence or just a nice memory until you open it

Eh, that last part is also extremely unrealistic. Just all of it.

First of all you seem to have some pretty deep sexism about male and female sexuality where sex is always great for men etc. Reality is, if you've got a partner who uses alcohol or something else in a problematic way, that means a lot of sex with someone who's wasted and most of it not great. Yes it would be better to get the hell out, but it's extremely unfair to say the guy is a criminal or a creep for staying in a relationship like that.

Even if it's not a longterm thing, lots of women very actively want sex while they're wasted, and it can be a very difficult thing to say no to for many men who have been told that they should always be wanting it, but that doesn't mean that the guy is the problem there. It's probably not a great decision to say yes, and the sex probably doesn't leave a good memory, but it's extremely human and extremely normal. Yes it's probably smart to say no, but there's a difference between being stupid and being a bad person.

If it was a drunk guy wanting sex with a soberish woman, no one would be saying the woman is a creep for saying yes.

Also, unless they're white and you're not, effectively no one goes to jail for sex like that. You ever follow the news on the topic?

In fact considering just how common drunken sex is, statistically almost no one ever even gets accused of doing something wrong by anyone in any way. The vast, vast majority of time it's just a really normal stupid thing a lot of people do. Which is exactly why it's so easy for predators and creeps to hide in the crowd.