Golf!!!2!

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's definitely a bit embarrassing on the occasions when you yell it and it comes up well short of the people who you've just sent scampering for cover with their hands over their heads. But better safe than sorry.

[AltaGuy]

Haha - there's embarrassment to be found everywhere golfing. My personal favourite is waiting for ten minutes for a green to clear on a par five, holding up the group behind, and then duffing it twenty yards. Like clockwork for me.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I thought you were going to say someone hit a kid, so I guess a kitten is preferable to that.

I nearly got smoked by someone's shanked drive right in the head yesterday. It was through some trees from the next hole over so I had no idea it was coming and the fore call was way too late for me to react. The thing whistled maybe 2 feet left of my face and even though it was on a bounce it still would have been a hospital visit for sure. Two holes later, a ball flew right in between my cart and another cart and landed about 10 yards away, no warning at all. Not cool.

Last year I was in a cart behind a green and a ball went between us and front windshield through the side as we were driving to the next hole. It was terrifying! There wasn't anything the group behind us could've done (they couldn't have seen us and honestly, what are the odds).

I generally yell fore, though. As they say, "fores are free" and if you think you're anywhere near someone, it's the right thing to do.

[Dion]

Played my last round at Speargrass today. Perfect temps and little to no wind, The course was in great shape and I finished with a birdie on 18 to finish the season.

[nfotiu]

https://firepitcollective.com/the-wo...-heard-so-far/

I see this DQ causing a lot of social media discord. A few things about this scenario.

1. None of the articles say he actually declared he was hitting a provisional, so the whole obscure rule part of this seems like a bit of a red herring to help him look better. If he saw his ball splash, he likely didn't declare it a provisional because he thought it was lost. He walked up and was happy to find it ok, and for some reason thought it was ok to play it. If that's the scenario, then he's just basically cheating and it's hard to believe he could be a star college player and think that is ok.

2. I did not know that obscure rule, so that was good to learn. If he did declare it a provisional and his playing partners and caddies knew he couldn't in that scenario, then they should have called him out then, and I guess the article is valid in villianizing them a bit. I think that's pretty unlikely though, and the articles would have mentioned it.

3. The provisional rule is a mess and is the most intentionally or unintentionally abused rule at seemingly any level below the PGA tour. My kid has started playing in competitive jr tournaments that matter for rankings that colleges look at, etc.

At least once a round, there is an eyebrow raising abuse of the provisional. ie, playing the same ball both shots with no markings and hit them both in the same area and claim they found their first ball; not declaring a provisional because they're sure it was deep in the trees only to find it and say they muttered provisional under their breath; not saying it was a provisional, but going to look for their first anyway(or a parent looks for it) knowing they'd probably claim it was a provisional if found in a good spot... a lot of these are fairly unintentional but are usually a 2 shot swing playing it incorrectly vs correctly. So many fairly serious golfers work under the assumption that they can pick the best option, but that is not the rule, and really penalizes players who play the rule correctly.

I've always considered myself to have a pretty strong understanding of the rules of golf, but trying to solidify it more for his sake and there are still common scenarios I'm uncertain about and can't really find answers online.

a. What is the situation when you hit the ball into the trees in a course you aren't familiar with. Then you walk up and see it is unplayable in a red stake area, or walk up and see red stakes you didn't know there that the ball is almost certainly in, but can't see the ball? What's the correct play in each of those scenarios?

The more liberal use of red stakes since the rules changed a couple years ago has made this much more common.

[Weitz]

Golf rules are dumb.

[Slava]

I’m not sure why it’s a rule? Like he hits the provisional because he thinks the first one is in the water. It’s not…but he can’t play the first one? So bizarre because you would think the rule was the exact opposite and you would have to play your first ball.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Slava

I’m not sure why it’s a rule? Like he hits the provisional because he thinks the first one is in the water. It’s not…but he can’t play the first one? So bizarre because you would think the rule was the exact opposite and you would have to play your first ball.

The ambiguous part comes if you walk up there and see it is in the hazard, but may or not be good to hit from there. It opens up all sorts of scenarios, like it's an iffy lie, but I striped my drive and will just go with that because it's technically behind on the penalty side of the red line, or it actually bounced up into the grass but still in the penalty area but my provisional sucked and I'm definitely going with the first ball, and all the scenarios in between.

It's mostly fair that hitting a provisional doesn't mean you get to pick whichever ball is in a better position. But increased red stakes have just opened up so many questionable situations that lead to innocent mistakes and exploitations.

[Slava]

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I guess if it’s red stake though it’s lateral anyway, so you could just take relief up where you went in. I don’t really see an advantage if it’s water where it’s basically in or out though.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Slava

I’m not sure why it’s a rule? Like he hits the provisional because he thinks the first one is in the water. It’s not…but he can’t play the first one? So bizarre because you would think the rule was the exact opposite and you would have to play your first ball.

You can only hit a provisional if the ball is thought to be lost or OB. You can't "lose" a ball in a penalty area. Even though the ball is found in the penalty area he's has to play his 4th shot from the fairway.

I really doubt that a rules official being called to the scene on the hole in question would have gotten it right, this situation is that obscure.

This whole thing sucks for everyone involved, especially since jobs are on the line. Hopefully he can Monday into some tournaments this year and get enough points to get some status.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

You can only hit a provisional if the ball is thought to be lost or OB. You can't "lose" a ball in a penalty area. Even though the ball is found in the penalty area he's has to play his 4th shot from the fairway.

I really doubt that a rules official being called to the scene on the hole in question would have gotten it right, this situation is that obscure.

This whole thing sucks for everyone involved, especially since jobs are on the line. Hopefully he can Monday into some tournaments this year and get enough points to get some status.

The part I don’t understand is why even bring up the obscure part of the rule? It doesn’t sound like he even announced it as a provisional. It makes sense that he wouldn’t since he saw it splash. Without announcing it. The second ball is in play and that is a rule he should know about.

Did they dq him on the obscure rule because it’s less subjective than him maybe claiming he muttered provisional and no one heard?

[Slava]

I’m trying to put myself in that position, and I 100% play the first ball that I thought was in the water and pick up the second.

[bossy22]

I would hit the first one if I happen to find it. It happened to me this year where I shanked one into the trees. So I hit a provisional and hit a beauty. We went over to take a quick look and found my ball, so I played that one out of the trees. After that shot I was still short of my provisional which I picked up when I eventually got to it. That's how I understood it to work but I'm new to keeping score. However, I didn't know if I still have to add a stroke for hitting a provisional.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by bossy22

I would hit the first one if I happen to find it. It happened to me this year where I shanked one into the trees. So I hit a provisional and hit a beauty. We went over to take a quick look and found my ball, so I played that one out of the trees. After that shot I was still short of my provisional which I picked up when I eventually got to it. That's how I understood it to work but I'm new to keeping score. However, I didn't know if I still have to add a stroke for hitting a provisional.

That sounds right though. You can play the provisional until you play past the original. One you do that, you are deemed to have taken the provisional (and three from the tee) even if you find the original after that. I think that the issue here is the water.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by bossy22

I would hit the first one if I happen to find it. It happened to me this year where I shanked one into the trees. So I hit a provisional and hit a beauty. We went over to take a quick look and found my ball, so I played that one out of the trees. After that shot I was still short of my provisional which I picked up when I eventually got to it. That's how I understood it to work but I'm new to keeping score. However, I didn't know if I still have to add a stroke for hitting a provisional.

Yeah, what you are describing is correct and standard, assuming you did announce that you were hitting a provisional. If you find your ball in bounds, then you have to play it and your provisional is no longer in play and for scoring it's like you never hit it.

It gets a bit dicey if you didn't announce it was a provisional and then went up and happened to find it. I would never call someone out in a casual round for not announcing "provisional", even if playing for a bit of money or men's league (unless the league was a stickler for following rules).

The problem with not announcing it, is that it creates all sorts of ambiguity. Say you walked up and found your ball in bounds but was up against a tree and you were in jail with 5 rows of tree in front of you. If you walk up and find that ball there and know your provisional was in the middle of the fairway, then you'd much prefer to take the provisional. If you didn't call it a provisional, then you are supposed to play that second drive anyway. But if you do find it and it was in good shape, then you'd want to play it, and at that point a lot of people would play that found ball as if they had announced a provisional. That gets sketchy in a competitive round though because you've created a scenario where you get to pick whichever option looks better when you get up there, and that's not how a provisional is supposed to work.

The scenario in the article is unique because he didn't announce provisional, but even if he did or tried to claim he did, he wasn't allowed to because the ball could only be in a red staked penalty area if it was lost.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

https://firepitcollective.com/the-wo...-heard-so-far/

I see this DQ causing a lot of social media discord. A few things about this scenario.

When you are trying to make a living at something it is always best to understand the rules of that particular endeavor. When you're trying to be a professional golfer it is wise to become very familiar with the rules of golf. This means you should not only read the Rules of Golf multiple times, but you should also read the Decisions on the Rules of Golf. This helps in 99% of issues like this because you have the foundation to make immediate interpretations and understand the foundations as to how decisions are reached.

Having said that, the failure by the player to know his options in not completely on him. His caddy should have been there with some knowledge, and if there was any sense of confusion, they should have engaged a rules official. Get an interpretation from that official and play by that official's interpretation. That clears you of possible wrongdoing and gives you a huge out in cases like this.

The player made an error, but pleading ignorance is no defense. This isn't some weekend warrior playing with his buddies for beers. This is a guy who wants to be a professional. The mechanisms are there, especially at Q School, and the player failed to use that safety net. If unsure, ask for help. The officials are there for a reason. It is an indication the player is not yet ready to be a professional.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Did they dq him on the obscure rule because it’s less subjective than him maybe claiming he muttered provisional and no one heard?

I've only caddied at the pro level for 8 rounds, but my experience is these guys are fanatical about announcing make, model, number and markings (eg three blue dots, red line through Titleist, etc) before they put a new ball in play.

There is little to no chance he put a provisional in play before announcing it.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I've only caddied at the pro level for 8 rounds, but my experience is these guys are fanatical about announcing make, model, number and markings (eg three blue dots, red line through Titleist, etc) before they put a new ball in play.

There is little to no chance he put a provisional in play before announcing it.

Yeah, that's what I'd expect them to do. No articles mention that he did anything like that though. If he did make that announcement and the caddy knew he couldn't do that, that's when they should have said something. I'd agree that it is snaky if he didn't.

It seems somewhat unlikely that he would go through the provisional ritual if he saw the ball splash though. And if he did, it should have at least crossed his mind that he might be doing something against the rules. ie, if he walked up and saw it half in the water, would he think that he has the choice of picking the better option of the ball half in the water or the provisional on the fairway?

Also the rule actually doesn't seem that obscure. Every YouTube video or rules article I Google about how to play a provisional goes covers that rule of not being able to play a provisional if your ball is certain to be in a penalty area if it is lost. I didn't know it though.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Yeah, that's what I'd expect them to do. No articles mention that he did anything like that though. If he did make that announcement and the caddy knew he couldn't do that, that's when they should have said something. I'd agree that it is snaky if he didn't.

It seems somewhat unlikely that he would go through the provisional ritual if he saw the ball splash though. And if he did, it should have at least crossed his mind that he might be doing something against the rules. ie, if he walked up and saw it half in the water, would he think that he has the choice of picking the better option of the ball half in the water or the provisional on the fairway?

Also the rule actually doesn't seem that obscure. Every YouTube video or rules article I Google about how to play a provisional goes covers that rule of not being able to play a provisional if your ball is certain to be in a penalty area if it is lost. I didn't know it though.

But if he hits it off the tee and thinks it's in the water, he can tee up and hit three from the tee, right? Like it's not him thinking it's a provisional...he just thinks that ball is gone.

The issue comes when he walks up and his ball isn't actually gone. He thought it was wet, it's not and he thinks, "well, I have to play the first one here", which makes sense to me and seems like an easy mistake. Sure, someone should've said something, but that's the part where it's obscure, not the second tee shot.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Slava

But if he hits it off the tee and thinks it's in the water, he can tee up and hit three from the tee, right? Like it's not him thinking it's a provisional...he just thinks that ball is gone.

The issue comes when he walks up and his ball isn't actually gone. He thought it was wet, it's not and he thinks, "well, I have to play the first one here", which makes sense to me and seems like an easy mistake. Sure, someone should've said something, but that's the part where it's obscure, not the second tee shot.

If you don't announce it as a provisional and go through the routine like DoubleK describes, then it's not a provisional no matter where the first one is. The second ball is in play no matter what.