A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This isn't what I was complaining about at all though.

The White Walkers didn't even necessarily have to be the final villains of the series, but prior to this episode, the overarching story had been the threat of the White Walkers being ignored in favour of the minor quarrels of men. If I'm not mistaken, literally every season has ended featuring the White Walkers. The series began with them.

I'm not asking for the writers to follow a prophecy. I don't need Jon Snow to be the hero. But through the first 6 seasons, they created and developed a fantasy world with rules and laws and threats. I'm not talking about fan theories not coming to pass (as I said, I tried to ignore them all following season 7). It's just... disappointing.

You can say this is a way for the writers to avoid falling into standard fantasy tropes, but to me that's just lazy writing. I'm not even sure you're correct in saying it's avoiding fantasy tropes. The heroes won. Three supplementary characters died heroically and completed their character arcs. Now they face the evil woman to the south.

The White Walkers didn't need to be victorious for me to be satisfied, but how un-tropey would it have been to have seen the Night King win, kill almost everyone in Winterfell, march south, and eventually run into Cersei? Now the last three episodes are Cersei vs the threat she ignored. That's the most extreme example of what could have been, but it's certainly anything but a fantasy trope.

I don't know. I just expected more. The episode itself wasn't disappointing, but the overarching story has turned for me. I wanted to see a North devastated by White Walkers. I wanted to see people try to survive in this new climate. We heard about some of it prior to episode 3, it just wasn't built into the narrative.

This just feels lazy and incomplete.

I'm still going to watch the rest of the season and enjoy it. I will re-watch the series and enjoy it.

I think what you disliked is what I liked.

The real evil is not from the North but in the hearts of Men. The magical world is not the driving force of the show. I get where you are coming though.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think what you disliked is what I liked.

The real evil is not from the North but in the hearts of Men. The magical world is not the driving force of the show. I get where you are coming though.

But I think that's his point. The early seasons underlying theme was that the Game of Thrones actually didn't matter. That while everyone was playing that game, something far more important was taking place. Everyone was scheming together and ignoring the real threat.



The show has reversed that now to make Cersei the big bad (apparently) which is actually a complete change of direction.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Not to discount how much I enjoyed the build up and resolution of the White Walker threat, but the real meat and potatoes of this show has always been the conflicts and machinations of its central cast.

Agreed. There are far more character stories tied up with resolving the situation in King's Landing and who sits on the Iron Throne than there were in the defeating the Night King.

It would have felt like a big let-down to battle in King's Landing, deal with Cersei, resolve Dany's story, resolve the whole Dany or Jon thing, resolve Jaime's and Tyrion's feelings for their sister, resolve Clegane Bowl, reveal Gendry's birthright, etc., then turn north for a big battle against the Walkers. At that point the only story question to resolve would be whether the ice or the fire wins.

Is GoT a fantasy story with political elements, or a political story with fantasy elements? I think when GRRM started the books it was the former, but it soon became the latter. And the show has always been the latter.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ped

But I think that's his point. The early seasons underlying theme was that the Game of Thrones actually didn't matter. That while everyone was playing that game, something far more important was taking place. Everyone was scheming together and ignoring the real threat.



The show has reversed that now to make Cersei the big bad (apparently) which is actually a complete change of direction.

Jon believed that, The red Priestess who burned a child at the stake to make the prophecy come true believed that, Bran believed that.

But I’m not sure you can argue that the show believed it. Maybe the Books are the Song of Fire and Ice (I only read the first two) but the show has always been the game of thrones.

[FireGilbert]

I don’t have a problem resolving the NK story with 3 episodes to go. It doesn’t surprise me a show that featured season climaxes in episode 9 of 10 has the overall climax in episode 70 of 73.

Also the Stark vs Lannister rivalry has always been the most interesting part of the show from the first episode. Seeing how this is resolved should make a captivating ending.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GGG

Jon believed that, The red Priestess who burned a child at the stake to make the prophecy come true believed that, Bran believed that.

But I’m not sure you can argue that the show believed it. Maybe the Books are the Song of Fire and Ice (I only read the first two) but the show has always been the game of thrones.

I mean the tagline of the show is Winter Is Coming. So you sure can argue that the show believed it. "The bigger threat" has always been the theme of this show.

How many seasons ended with White Walker stuff to keep it in people's minds that this was the problem coming?

I really enjoyed the episode, it was fun. I agree with many of the major criticisms. The death teases and then last minute saves at multiple times was very un-Got. I'm also disappointed they cut this (in my opinion) short, because I was also more interested in the White Walker stuff than the battles between houses because we've already seen it so many times.

[nik-]

And if you want to be cynical, they could also have truncated it to leave it mysterious and a curiosity for the upcoming spinoff/prequel

http://time.com/5553873/game-of-thro...-release-date/

[getbak]

Interesting interview with the actor who played the Night King: https://celebrity.nine.com.au/2019/0...ladimir-furdik


He got his start on the show as a stunt performer and was offered the Night King role after he was killed by Jon Snow in one of the earlier season's battles. He was also Arthur Dayne's stunt double in the Tower of Joy scene. That means he's been killed by at least three members of the Stark family -- Ned, Jon, and Arya.

He also helped choreograph the sparring battle between Arya and Brienne last season.

[FlamesAddiction]

For those disappointed that there weren't more big character deaths, there are still 3 episodes left. You know someone is going to kick the bucket.

My money is on Jamie Lannister. Cersei will do something that leads to his death I think. Everyone she loves has to die.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by nik-

I mean the tagline of the show is Winter Is Coming. So you sure can argue that the show believed it. "The bigger threat" has always been the theme of this show.

How many seasons ended with White Walker stuff to keep it in people's minds that this was the problem coming?

I really enjoyed the episode, it was fun. I agree with many of the major criticisms. The death teases and then last minute saves at multiple times was very un-Got. I'm also disappointed they cut this (in my opinion) short, because I was also more interested in the White Walker stuff than the battles between houses because we've already seen it so many times.

I think that goes back to my first point of the two groups who watch the show. That those who wanted a fantasy story with politics are disappointed with the way the Night King went down. Those that were watching a political thriller with fantasy elements were happy. I don’t think it’s to valid opinions rather than anyone being right.

I do agree with the criticism of the lack of character deaths. Jon running by Sam to get the night king at that action not causing Sam’s death really continued the lack of consequence. None of Greyworm,Brienne or missandie or any names character in the Cryot going down was anti climactic as well. Missandie dying in the crypts, Sam or Brienne dying, the Hound dying to save Arya to deprive us of Cleagane bowl. 1 or 2 more tier 2 characters biting the dust would have made it better. Though it isn’t fair to say they didn’t kill anyone Theon was a top 10 screen time character. The Red Priestess has a huge influence in the overall plot, Fan favourite Mormont going down, and Jorah dying defending Dany was a fitting death.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I would think it would be the people who wanted a political thriller with fantasy elements that are disappointed. The political thriller aspect of GOT died with Tywin Lannister.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I would think it would be the people who wanted a political thriller with fantasy elements that are disappointed. The political thriller aspect of GOT died with Tywin Lannister.

Yeah I agree - I find that backwards. Political thrillers require backstory, characterization, and action/reaction. Cersei sits on the Iron Throne without much explanation other than that she’s bad, and she decided to have it. Euron has almost no story to him at this point.

The characters with the political stories - Tyrion, Varys, Sansa - have all been sidelined. We’ll see if that changes.

Littlefinger RIP

[Finger Cookin]

So we're going to see Cersei and Euron more this coming episode. I wonder how they find out about the Battle of Winterfell? I wonder how much airtime will be given to talking about the Golden Company and its prowess and numbers vs whatever remains from the North. Down to 1 Dragon from 3. A fraction of the manpower it would have possessed. Hope it's interesting.

Also, the whole "Jon is Aegon" thing has probably got to be addressed, at least within the inner circle in the North. The only people who know this currently are Bran, Sam, Jon, and Dany. How will Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Varys, and others react?

[AltaGuy]

I think there are still two dragons. Jon’s just went MIA for a little while.

[Fuzz]

Ya, if a dragon died, they would have made sure to show a dragon dying. The dragons got the same screen treatment as Sam and Brienne, which leads me to believe they are fine.

[oldschoolcalgary]

finally got around to watching...thought it was pretty good with some quibbles... but as others have noted, the confrontation has been built up for a long time, so it would be impossible for the creative team to meet everyone's expectations.

i was a little surprised with the lack of deaths of major characters however... especially when they show them getting swarmed and them somehow have made it out on multiple occasions.

the red wedding had more major characters get killed off and in brutal fashion... get swarmed by and undead army and lose.... Theon and Jorah? Beric and Eddison are secondary characters imo...

so, while i enjoyed it, and there were visual moments that where really well conceptualized... it didn't surprise me like other episodes of GoT did...only that the NK, and the threat to Westeros, died in the one episode...

a little deus ex machina

[CaptainCrunch]

Without looking at any posts.



I just finished season 3 and the Red Wedding


I'd been really musing that they had turned down the violence quite a bit, and then they hit me with the complete sensory overload.


At the end of season 3, I can say that this is just a tremendously great show, but it seems to be going by so fricken fast.

[Patek23]

Has GOT ever gone back to show a situation from a different perspective other then Brans time traveling visions? Would be cool if they showed what happened to Arya after she ran off from the red lady to ease people’s concerns that it was too easy to just have Arya breeze by a thousand dead magical soldiers.

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I would think it would be the people who wanted a political thriller with fantasy elements that are disappointed. The political thriller aspect of GOT died with Tywin Lannister.

Well put. To me, this was like House of Cards but in fantasy land. Now it's something more "action-y". However, as last week's show continues to get dissected there are a lot of interesting theories coming out that adds more intrigue to the show. Looking forward to tomorrow!

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ya, if a dragon died, they would have made sure to show a dragon dying. The dragons got the same screen treatment as Sam and Brienne, which leads me to believe they are fine.

Jon's dragon that crashed to the ground as Jon was thrown off didn't die? It literally fell out of the sky after its battle with the ice dragon. That looked pretty definitive to me, but I suppose it's possible the dragon is OK. You'd think it would have come to his aid when he was surrounded by reanimated dead instead of letting Dany and Drogon do the save - but I suppose if it was dead, there would have been two ice dragons? I guess we'll see over the remainder of the series.