American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

This is such a naive post. Sure the US might be great if you have a good job with solid income, but what if something unexpected happens? One unexpected layoff and suddenly you're at the mercy of the failed American social safety net. Or if you become seriously ill then you're in danger of bankruptcy regardless of how good your insurance is

America is only good for the true 1%, those who already have enough money in the bank to never worry about it. For the rest it's simply a life gamble, hope your dice roll includes steady work with good pay and good benefits and pray that you never get seriously ill. And even if you luck out with a natural 20, you'll still be lagging behind most of the world in quality of life in areas like guaranteed vacation, maternity leave, and workers rights

And yet Canadian health care workers are flooding to the U.S. for better pay. I guess they’re just naive.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by Matata

30% pay bump, lower cost of living, lower taxes plus choice of weather. If my technical skills are only valuable for a limited amount of time, then arent I doing myself a disservice by not going where they would be of most value?

The places that pay equivalent or more in USD that would get you that pay bump, your cost of living would be far greater than Calgary - Houston 1250 USD, Seattle 2200 USD, Silicon Valley 2800 USD, Calgary for the same one bedroom apartment averages1400 CAD.

Also, unless you are rich and can afford an army of accounts, taxes in the US and Canada are quite comparable. The US has a bigger range than we do. On six figures, in theory here you would pay 4% more for Federal, but again, local taxes in those high wage areas tend to be higher than Calgary/Alberta.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Krovikan

The places that pay equivalent or more in USD that would get you that pay bump, your cost of living would be far greater than Calgary - Houston 1250 USD, Seattle 2200 USD, Silicon Valley 2800 USD, Calgary for the same one bedroom apartment averages1400 CAD.

Also, unless you are rich and can afford an army of accounts, taxes in the US and Canada are quite comparable. The US has a bigger range than we do. On six figures, in theory here you would pay 4% more for Federal, but again, local taxes in those high wage areas tend to be higher than Calgary/Alberta.

Last time I did a fairly deep compare of Federal/VA vs Federal/AB, a single person making 6 figures paid a little more in the US. If you're married with a couple kids, and own a house, then there are a lot of deductions that bring the US taxes significantly lower.

You picked some expensive US cities for comparisons. Cost of living in mid sized cities in the US tend to be quite a bit lower than Calgary in my experience and there are plenty of good job opportunities in them. Also things like IT work is moving more and more remote, so it doesn't really matter where you live.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet Canadian health care workers are flooding to the U.S. for better pay. I guess they’re just naive.

For Alberta, when you freeze Nurses wages for years - then threaten a wage cut, they agree to a 4.35% increase over 4 years. Meanwhile, inflation is spinning out of control, and the province dumps on you every chance they get you might want to leave as well.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Uh you could shoot him once and that's it? This isn't a video game with a health bar up top that only marginally dips into red, and so you have to make sure you blast the ever loving #### out of him. But no, 60 shots is reasonable... I mean if you shoot him once at least he has a shot at living (pun intended).

Why do police enter police work assuming they will not, or should never, encounter danger?

Sure i don’t disagree
But then there is reality
There are plenty of videos on the internet explaining why cops shoot to incapacitate, which usually means death.
Adrenaline is a crazy thing
There is no chance taking in potentially life or death situations

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet Canadian health care workers are flooding to the U.S. for better pay. I guess they’re just naive.

Is there any stats that show this as a flood of workers?

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Last time I did a fairly deep compare of Federal/VA vs Federal/AB, a single person making 6 figures paid a little more in the US. If you're married with a couple kids, and own a house, then there are a lot of deductions that bring the US taxes significantly lower.



You picked some expensive US cities for comparisons. Cost of living in mid sized cities in the US tend to be quite a bit lower than Calgary in my experience and there are plenty of good job opportunities in them. Also things like IT work is moving more and more remote, so it doesn't really matter where you live.

I chose three cities with the highest chance of getting equivalent wages 100k CAD to 100k USD, to get that 30% increase.

Yes, you can do remote; however, the US Internet infrastructure restricts a lot and you'd have to live in higher cost cities. You could also work remotely from Canada in those positions (unless they are for high security, dealing with their security - ie. utilities, in which point you'd have to be a US citizen and live in the US)

Yes there are a lot of deductions and most US citizens don't take advantage of them due to the overwhelming complexity of the tax system.

Btw, I have 23 years of combined IT/IS experience, there are opportunities in the states to make more, but it's not as easy as most make it out to be. Though I will say, some Companies in Calgary tech are having massive issues right now because they refuse to realize they are competing on an international level for wages and no longer local, losing their top end talent to remote work

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Sure i don’t disagree
But then there is reality
There are plenty of videos on the internet explaining why cops shoot to incapacitate, which usually means death.
Adrenaline is a crazy thing
There is no chance taking in potentially life or death situations

Surely you can find a middle ground between potentially missing a shot and shooting a guy 60 times.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet Canadian health care workers are flooding to the U.S. for better pay. I guess they’re just naive.

Citation required. I would also like the longitudinal study that determines the length that these healthcare workers are staying in the US. The last article I saw on such a brain drain was just the opposite. More doctors are returning to Canada than exit.

The ability for healthcare professionals to come to the United States from other countries has been greatly restricted in recent years. Unless educated and board certified in the United States, hospitals have a very difficult time bringing in professionals from other countries, thanks to the stringent insurance requirements. Those from foreign countries have normally done so through friendly institutions who offer residency opportunities back in the United States to meet the administrative needs of the corporation that owns the hospital/clinic. It is also extremely difficult for unaffiliated doctors to get the insurance they need to practice in the United States anymore. Nurses usually come here on rotational basis and subject to the length of their work visa, which don't get renewed very easily these days. Those that do come down here quickly find that the US is not the land of milk and honey like they were led to believe and that the cost of malpractice insurance, the complexity of the billing systems, and the endless fighting with insurance carriers makes the system not worth the effort. Some stay, but more go home after their initial taste of working in the United States. And that does not count for the doctors in the United States that are picking up and moving to other nations because the system here is too costly and difficult to negotiate.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Krovikan

For Alberta, when you freeze Nurses wages for years - then threaten a wage cut, they agree to a 4.35% increase over 4 years. Meanwhile, inflation is spinning out of control, and the province dumps on you every chance they get you might want to leave as well.

They’re leaving every province. And inflation is running higher in the U.S. than in Canada.

But regardless, if the U.S. really is worse for 99 per cent of people, then health care professionals who move there must be fools.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

This is such a naive post. Sure the US might be great if you have a good job with solid income, but what if something unexpected happens? One unexpected layoff and suddenly you're at the mercy of the failed American social safety net. Or if you become seriously ill then you're in danger of bankruptcy regardless of how good your insurance is

America is only good for the true 1%, those who already have enough money in the bank to never worry about it. For the rest it's simply a life gamble, hope your dice roll includes steady work with good pay and good benefits and pray that you never get seriously ill. And even if you luck out with a natural 20, you'll still be lagging behind most of the world in quality of life in areas like guaranteed vacation, maternity leave, and workers rights

Some of that is a bit of hyperbole. You're not going to go bankrupt from medical bills if you have decent insurance. Most mid-level professional jobs have out of pocket maxes in the 4000-5000 range for a family for the year, so you aren't going to owe more than that.

The people in the worst position currently are self employed making too much for subsidized Obamacare deductibles and out pocket maxes and their out of pocket maxes can be up to $17k for the year for a family. Probably not enough that should bankrupt someone if you are making $100k a year though, and someone making that much should really plan things out to have an hsa or fsa or better insurance.

People making under $50k generally have ok or good options with out of pocket maxes under $1000 for people making $30-45 or so. Medicaid is an ok option for people making less than that with little to no copays, but tougher access to providers in some cases.

It's pretty standard for most professionals to get more than the Canadian min for vacation and mat/pat leave.

Yeah, there is more of a responsibility of an American to research and negotiate some of these items before taking a job or moving somewhere and to take measures to protect yourself, but it's also not as bleak as you are making it out to be.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Some of that is a bit of hyperbole. You're not going to go bankrupt from medical bills if you have decent insurance. Most mid-level professional jobs have out of pocket maxes in the 4000-5000 range for a family for the year, so you aren't going to owe more than that.

The people in the worst position currently are self employed making too much for subsidized Obamacare deductibles and out pocket maxes and their out of pocket maxes can be up to $17k for the year for a family. Probably not enough that should bankrupt someone if you are making $100k a year though, and someone making that much should really plan things out to have an hsa or fsa or better insurance.

People making under $50k generally have ok or good options with out of pocket maxes under $1000 for people making $30-45 or so. Medicaid is an ok option for people making less than that with little to no copays, but tougher access to providers in some cases.

It's pretty standard for most professionals to get more than the Canadian min for vacation and mat/pat leave.

Yeah, there is more of a responsibility of an American to research and negotiate some of these items before taking a job or moving somewhere and to take measures to protect yourself, but it's also not as bleak as you are making it out to be.

I'm sure this is true, but its also amazing how many gofundme's you see on social media from US citizens who have decent jobs after a car accident or some other unexpected event. $4k-$5k/year is still a good chunk of change that I'm sure most people don't have saved up.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Some of that is a bit of hyperbole. You're not going to go bankrupt from medical bills if you have decent insurance. Most mid-level professional jobs have out of pocket maxes in the 4000-5000 range for a family for the year, so you aren't going to owe more than that.

The people in the worst position currently are self employed making too much for subsidized Obamacare deductibles and out pocket maxes and their out of pocket maxes can be up to $17k for the year for a family. Probably not enough that should bankrupt someone if you are making $100k a year though, and someone making that much should really plan things out to have an hsa or fsa or better insurance.

People making under $50k generally have ok or good options with out of pocket maxes under $1000 for people making $30-45 or so. Medicaid is an ok option for people making less than that with little to no copays, but tougher access to providers in some cases.

It's pretty standard for most professionals to get more than the Canadian min for vacation and mat/pat leave.

Yeah, there is more of a responsibility of an American to research and negotiate some of these items before taking a job or moving somewhere and to take measures to protect yourself, but it's also not as bleak as you are making it out to be.

Nicky, that's a little naive. Healthcare issues vary from state-to-state and situation-to-situation. I'm sure you're basing your comments off of your personal situation, kind of like your student loan experience, rather than the larger picture. Things may be different in Virginia but the states I've worked in (Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, California, and Arizona) are very different, and each very different from each other. There are no hard fast rules on benefits and in each state vary dramatically.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'm sure this is true, but its also amazing how many gofundme's you see on social media from US citizens who have decent jobs after a car accident or some other unexpected event. $4k-$5k/year is still a good chunk of change that I'm sure most people don't have saved up.

You can offset that 4-5k with an HSA. I put $250/month tax deductible into mine for the family and if I don't use it that year, it keeps carrying over.

There are plenty of flaw in the system for sure and tonnes of people can fall through the cracks.

In the context of someone considering moving to the US for a six figure professional job, you can put some research and planning into figuring out how much you'd have to pay in medical expenses in a worst case scenario.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nicky, that's a little naive. Healthcare issues vary from state-to-state and situation-to-situation. I'm sure you're basing your comments off of your personal situation, kind of like your student loan experience, rather than the larger picture. Things may be different in Virginia but the states I've worked in (Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, California, and Arizona) are very different, and each very different from each other. There are no hard fast rules on benefits and in each state vary dramatically.

Obamacare rules for out of pocket maxes, subsidized premiums and deductibles are pretty standard nationally. But yeah, I am just offering a perspective based on my personal experience as a Canadian who has lived here a while.

I'm also trying to frame it in the context of a person considering moving here for a professional type job. I think it is inaccurate to make a blanket statement like you will go bankrupt if you are seriously ill no matter what insurance you have. I do think someone considering a move here would need to spend some time and effort in researching the benefits and all the potential implications that they wouldn't think of when making a move in Canada.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And yet Canadian health care workers are flooding to the U.S. for better pay. I guess they’re just naive.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Citation required.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They’re leaving every province.

Source: CliffFletcher.

I trust that will satisfy your request for a citation, Lanny.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Citation required. I would also like the longitudinal study that determines the length that these healthcare workers are staying in the US. The last article I saw on such a brain drain was just the opposite. More doctors are returning to Canada than exit.

The ability for healthcare professionals to come to the United States from other countries has been greatly restricted in recent years. Unless educated and board certified in the United States, hospitals have a very difficult time bringing in professionals from other countries, thanks to the stringent insurance requirements. Those from foreign countries have normally done so through friendly institutions who offer residency opportunities back in the United States to meet the administrative needs of the corporation that owns the hospital/clinic. It is also extremely difficult for unaffiliated doctors to get the insurance they need to practice in the United States anymore. Nurses usually come here on rotational basis and subject to the length of their work visa, which don't get renewed very easily these days. Those that do come down here quickly find that the US is not the land of milk and honey like they were led to believe and that the cost of malpractice insurance, the complexity of the billing systems, and the endless fighting with insurance carriers makes the system not worth the effort. Some stay, but more go home after their initial taste of working in the United States. And that does not count for the doctors in the United States that are picking up and moving to other nations because the system here is too costly and difficult to negotiate.

Wasn't so sure I believed it, but here is a globe and mail article regarding nurses from today about the subject: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...moving-abroad/

The article also talks a lot about working conditions and burnout of lifestyle, as we were discussing last page. Either someone at the globe was reading our chat or we have pretty succinctly tapped into the cultural consciousness on the subject.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Dion

The Radical right is just crazy

https://twitter.com/user/status/1542898653895032834

Replace the word "Christian" with "American/British way of life" or "democracy as America/Great Britain sees it" and what he's advocating for has been happening forever.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Wasn't so sure I believed it, but here is a globe and mail article regarding nurses from today about the subject: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...moving-abroad/

The article also talks a lot about working conditions and burnout of lifestyle, as we were discussing last page. Either someone at the globe was reading our chat or we have pretty succinctly tapped into the cultural consciousness on the subject.

Thanks. That is a good timing - although it is one person telling their story as opposed to giving any stats.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Is there any stats that show this as a flood of workers?

Hard to find exact stats.

While Canada’s nursing shortage pre-dates the pandemic, workers and experts say the past two years have exacerbated issues that have repeatedly failed to be addressed, including an aging workforce, poor salaries and the pull of higher-paying international jobs.

In 2020, Ontario had the lowest nurse-per-capita ratio in Canada, with 665 registered nurses (RNs) for every 100,000 people. The Canadian average is 814.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8487144/c...hortage-alarm/

Since the U.S. and Luxemberg are the only countries where nurse earn more than in Canada, safe to assume higher-paying international jobs pretty much means the U.S.

Here’s a study showing 20k Canadian nurses and 10 per cent of nursing grads working in the U.S.

https://www.longwoods.com/content/23...tion-to-the-us

Anyway, while I personally wouldn’t move to the U.S., the notion that the 800k + Canadians who live there who aren’t among the wealthiest 1 per cent are all fools is pretty ridiculous. The U.S. is a vast and varied place. A lot of people genuinely do earn more, have better jobs, better quality of life than they would have in Canada. You don’t need to have swallowed conservative propaganda to recognize that.