High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[CliffFletcher]

You just proved my point.

If you think someone breaking into your home and robbing you at gunpoint is worse that having your car stolen, does that mean you're totally cool and okay with somebody stealing your car?

The ability to draw distinctions is what separates civilized justice from mob justice.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What CK did was harassment. But like all crimes, there are degrees of sexual misconduct or harassment. The problem is, in this atmosphere if you simply point out there are degrees of crime, you're accused of being a defender or apologist.

Stealing cars is bad. Breaking into peoples' homes and robbing them at gunpoint is worse. To point out it's worse isn't to defend or apologize for people stealing cars.

The posts being replied to are not stealing cars is a crime. It's stealing cars is an embarrassing habit. The posts being responded to are stating this isn't unlawful sexual harassment.

[icecube]

Anyone else find it kind of weird that the Charlie Sheen/Corey Haim thing just evaporated in a matter of hours?

Seems nobody cares because Sheen isn't an A lister anymore. Louis CK is getting all the attention.

The level of attention and outrage seems proportional to the level of star power the accused currently holds. Or am I out to lunch on this?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What CK did was harassment. But like all crimes, there are degrees of sexual misconduct or harassment. The problem is, in this atmosphere if you simply point out there are degrees of crime, you're accused of being a defender or apologist.

Stealing cars is bad. Breaking into peoples' homes and robbing them at gunpoint is worse. To point out it's worse isn't to defend or apologize for people stealing cars.

People aren't accusing you of being an apologist. It's just that it's yet another dumb strawman designed to dismiss the trauma inflicted on the victims, which ultimately is a big part of why women are reluctant to report these things.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

The posts being replied to are not stealing cars is a crime. It's stealing cars is an embarrassing habit. The posts being responded to are stating this isn't unlawful sexual harassment.

Fair enough. It's pretty clear to me it is harassment because of the CK's power in the industry and the tremendous influence his manager has over the comedy scene. Along with the fact that people in CK's camp asked the women to keep quiet about it - that's an implied threat.

Still, in this atmosphere nobody seems to want to draw distinctions between CK's actions and the actions of Weinstein and Spacey, which involve predatory abuses of power on a whole different scale.

The climate of sexual harassment and intimidation in Hollywood is pretty ugly. But mob justice by social media isn't especially pretty either.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by icecube

Anyone else find it kind of weird that the Charlie Sheen/Corey Haim thing just evaporated in a matter of hours?

Seems nobody cares because Sheen isn't an A lister anymore. Louis CK is getting all the attention.

The level of attention and outrage seems proportional to the level of star power the accused currently holds. Or am I out to lunch on this?

Well the LAPD just announced they're dropping the investigation into Feldman's pedoring accusations because of the Statute of Limitations.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The climate of sexual harassment and intimidation in Hollywood is pretty ugly. But mob justice by social media isn't especially pretty either.

Doesn't like the equivalence being drawn between sexual harassment and assault. Subsequently tries to draw an equivalence between sexual harassment and social media justice. You're on fire this morning.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by icecube

Anyone else find it kind of weird that the Charlie Sheen/Corey Haim thing just evaporated in a matter of hours?

Seems nobody cares because Sheen isn't an A lister anymore. Louis CK is getting all the attention.

The level of attention and outrage seems proportional to the level of star power the accused currently holds. Or am I out to lunch on this?

Was it ever a thing? I kind of put it up there along with the Allison Mack being second in command of a sex cult story that Troutman posted.

[jammies]

It is disturbing and sad and pathetic and funny all at the same time. People laughed when he alluded to it in his routine, now it's not funny anymore because it's real? No, that's part of what made the joke in the first place, you weren't sure how serious he was and suspected it was more than you'd be comfortable with.

Many terrible things are also hilarious. It's all right to admit that, so long as you don't revel and delight in it like a sociopath.

[Coach]

It sounds like Louis has an issue and knows it. The fact that he asked women as part of their first encounter tells me its some type of compulsion for him.

It's definitely all harassment. But I dunno, at least he's asking?

Originally Posted by Wormius

Was it ever a thing? I kind of put it up there along with the Allison Mack being second in command of a sex cult story that Troutman posted.

I think it's a combination of fame level and surprise. Allison Mack and Keith Whatever are barely celebrities and their cult thing seems less tied to "Hollywood" and more just a creepy cult that could/would exist anywhere.

The Haim/Sheen thing I guess is just not a surprise given Sheen's conduct, so people unfortunately kind of laugh it off (Of course Sheen was caught with hookers and blow. Of course Sheen drinks Tiger's blood. Of course Sheen raped a kid and probably more...).

It also sounds like, as vile as it was, it was consensual between Haim and Sheen and their ages weren't that far apart (however still illegal, 14 and 19). And they had consensual relations as adults as well. Definitely part of the cycle of abuse. Given how it started, I wouldn't be surprised if Sheen was treated to the exact same thing. Pretty disgusting/disturbing.

There's also the fact that a lot of people look up to Louis CK. No one looks up to Sheen or Mack. So it's more devastating to people when people they admire and try to emulate are outted as creeps at best.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still, in this atmosphere nobody seems to want to draw distinctions between CK's actions and the actions of Weinstein and Spacey, which involve predatory abuses of power on a whole different scale.

The climate of sexual harassment and intimidation in Hollywood is pretty ugly. But mob justice by social media isn't especially pretty either.

They’re also on two entirely different scales of ugly. If we’re promoting nuance and civilised justice, even comparing a cultural habit of character destruction in the face of sexual misconduct with the climate of sexual abuse and harassment in Hollywood requires a much stronger distinction than “pretty ugly” and “not especially pretty.”

That said, there is a reason legal justice takes the civil route and not the mob route. I don’t even really see social media mob justice as an issue in these cases, the thing it impacts most is reputation, something that someone earns through their actions and has no inherent right of protection (should the actions impacting it be true).

[calf]

Originally Posted by rubecube

People aren't accusing you of being an apologist. It's just that it's yet another dumb strawman designed to dismiss the trauma inflicted on the victims, which ultimately is a big part of why women are reluctant to report these things.

Yeah, it's not the severity of the act, but the severity of the trauma on the victim. Every victim will act differently - some might brush it off too, some may have a form of PTSD, some may make a significant career decision based on the harassment they received, or be blacklisted for their lack of "co-operation". Whether it's a smack on the butt, it's the impact, not the action that matters.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by calf

Yeah, it's not the severity of the act, but the severity of the trauma on the victim. Every victim will act differently - some might brush it off too, some may have a form of PTSD, some may make a significant career decision based on the harassment they received, or be blacklisted for their lack of "co-operation". Whether it's a smack on the butt, it's the impact, not the action that matters.

You have it backwards. It's impossible to judge based on victim impact because even actions we deem acceptable could still cause harm and vice versa.

It definitely is about the action. It's how we set a standard for societal norms.

And even if it causes no trauma, we should still discourage the behaviour.

[burn_this_city]

The Louie accusations have been in the public space for a while now. It was a least a year ago when I heard about it the first time.

[Raekwon]

Streakers are next. The agony of seeing a naked person is too much for some people. Is this sexual abuse? I'm half joking about the streaker but getting naked in front of non willing audiences is included right?

[Wastedyouth]

I'm struggling to respond to all this.

On one hand, I'm thinking "Why the hell didn't these women just walk away or hang up?"

But that is blaming the victim. Which I don't want to do. But I just can't fathom the mindset that anyone would continue to let that happen to them if they didn't want it. Which leads me down some negative thought paths, such as, were they really that disgusted at the time, or is now the time to seize the opportunity to enter the lime light?

On the other hand, I think "If a women in power that I admired started masturbating in front of me, I'm not sure I would be that upset, and I'd either laugh and walk away or see where it goes."

And I guess thats why it is incredibly difficult for women. We, as men, can't necessarily relate completely to these types of situations because societally, we have had all the power forever.

I feel bad for these women of course. And I think I am trying to be a better person by trying to understand and change my mindset to realize how ####ed up its been in our society for women for basically the entirety of our history, instead of sloughing it off as "women being overly emotional".

Sorry for the verbal diarrhea. Just trying to process this current craziness!

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by icecube

Anyone else find it kind of weird that the Charlie Sheen/Corey Haim thing just evaporated in a matter of hours?

Seems nobody cares because Sheen isn't an A lister anymore. Louis CK is getting all the attention.

The level of attention and outrage seems proportional to the level of star power the accused currently holds. Or am I out to lunch on this?

It doesn't "help" that Haim's mother has come out and denied the claim:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-rape-son.html

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

Streakers are next. The agony of seeing a naked person is too much for some people. Is this sexual abuse? I'm half joking about the streaker but getting naked in front of non willing audiences is included right?

Nudity =/= sexual intent. I think you’re missing the issue.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I'm struggling to respond to all this.

On one hand, I'm thinking "Why the hell didn't these women just walk away or hang up?"

But that is blaming the victim. Which I don't want to do. But I just can't fathom the mindset that anyone would continue to let that happen to them if they didn't want it. Which leads me down some negative thought paths, such as, were they really that disgusted at the time, or is now the time to seize the opportunity to enter the lime light?

On the other hand, I think "If a women in power that I admired started masturbating in front of me, I'm not sure I would be that upset, and I'd either laugh and walk away or see where it goes."

And I guess thats why it is incredibly difficult for women. We, as men, can't necessarily relate completely to these types of situations because societally, we have had all the power forever.

I feel bad for these women of course. And I think I am trying to be a better person by trying to understand and change my mindset to realize how ####ed up its been in our society for women for basically the entirety of our history, instead of sloughing it off as "women being overly emotional".

Sorry for the verbal diarrhea. Just trying to process this current craziness!

Similar to the Spacey story with the 18 year old boy, They are having drinks a lot of drinks and maybe a bit too forward he goes down his pants, I'm sure this has happened to many different people and some react differently. Personally I would have stopped him right away and told him he may have got the wrong impression but this guy that was 18 didn't and only left when Spacey went to the bathroom which maybe Spacey thought this guy was into it and would follow him.

He is still a victim but the situation could have been diffused easily but some freeze up.

[WhiteTiger]

To help a bit with the various definitions, what CK would be likely to be charged with would be multiple counts of Sexual Misconduct, 2nd or 3rd degree.

2nd degree: 1. A person commits the crime of sexual misconduct in the second degree if such person:
(1) Exposes his or her genitals under circumstances in which he or she knows that his or her conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm

3rd degree: A person commits the crime of sexual misconduct in the third degree if he solicits or requests another person to engage in sexual conduct under circumstances in which he knows that his requests or solicitation is likely to cause affront or alarm.

Sexual Harassment and Misconduct are pretty generalized things, and Harassment will generally fall 'under' Misconduct.