Three people killed in a knife attack in Nice, France.

[CliffFletcher]

The reason France is suffering these attacks is it’s a defiantly secular country, where religion is explicitly excluded from government services. It’s also a highly liberal country in its art, treatment of sexuality, and political culture.

This, unsurprisingly, is going make the assimilation of groups for whom religion is inseparable from public life, and where very conservative cultural norms still dominate, very difficult.

There is an economic aspect to the alienation of some immigrant populations (though the father of Paty’s killer built up a car dealership business, and gave his son his own car). But Macron is the wrong person to go after on that count, as he’s trying to liberalize the country’s economy and make it more dynamic, a change that would make it easier for young immigrants and the children of immigrants to get a foothold in work.

[Flamenspiel]

This is disgusting, how terrible for that teacher and the three others that apparently included the alter boy. The Trudeau regime’s response has been so cowardly as well.

There should be no quarter given here, a crime is a crime, I can’t stand political excuses for murder.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What I don’t get is why the murderers are going after people in churches. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons also have sacrilegious depictions of Christ (and other religious figures). And the teacher who was beheaded had previously told Catholic students to cover up their crosses. They seem to think they’re in a war of Islam vs Christianity. I guess the notion of secularism is too incredible for them to understand.

It seems like however that depictions of Christ aren't as taboo to Christians and Catholics compared to depictions of Prophet Muhammad to Muslims, which is why I don't think you can compare the two.

[CliffFletcher]

The Charlie Hebdo cartoon I’ve seen depicts several religious figures engaged in obscene sexual acts with one another. I’m confident the great majority of Christians (and Jews and Hindus) would find it extraordinarily offensive. But Christians, Jews, and Hindus didn’t storm Charlie Hebdo’s offices and slaughter everyone they could get their hands on.

It’s not a matter of what’s offensive. It’s a matter of how people react to offense.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Charlie Hebdo cartoon I’ve seen depicts several religious figures engaged in obscene sexual acts with one another. I’m confident the great majority of Christians (and Jews and Hindus) would find it extraordinarily offensive. But Christians, Jews, and Hindus didn’t storm Charlie Hebdo’s offices and slaughter everyone they could get their hands on.

It’s not a matter of what’s offensive. It’s a matter of how people react to offense.

The vast majority of Muslims didn’t either.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GGG

The vast majority of Muslims didn’t either.

The point there is why the ones who did, did it. Part of that has to do with the fundamentals of their religion, including with respect to depictions of the prophet. Part of it is no doubt the result of their socioeconomic circumstances, or French domestic policy. There's never one independent cause. But you can't discount the particular prescriptions of a religious doctrine when radical adherents to that doctrine carry out horrific acts, and then tell you point blank that they did it because their religion demanded it of them.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

The vast majority of Muslims didn’t either.

I never suggested they did. But the people outraged enough over it to murder people have all been Muslim. So it takes incredible mental gymnastics to pretend Islamic radicalization isn’t a factor.

It’s also worth noting that almost all Muslim majority countries have strict blasphemy laws. The separation of religion and state is anathema to Islam. Which makes acculturation to secular and liberal states like France particularly difficult for conservative Muslims, even if the vast majority would not resort to violence to enforce their beliefs.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

This is disgusting, how terrible for that teacher and the three others that apparently included the alter boy. The Trudeau regime’s response has been so cowardly as well.

There should be no quarter given here, a crime is a crime, I can’t stand political excuses for murder.

How was it cowardly? I thought Trudeau's response was spot on.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GGG

The vast majority of Muslims didn’t either.

True. France actually has more Muslims than any other Western country (approaching 10% of the population). Most of them are just as progressive as the rest of the French population.

AFC is right though that part of the reason France is a target is because of historical and colonial ambitions. There is a long history of tit-for-tat conflicts between France and Muslim powers. Extremists and fundamentalists don't care about modern conventions. Colonialism and even the Crusades still play a part in the extremist's psyche. Just like the Al-Andalus incursions into France played a huge role in the anti-Semitism and Islamophobia that developed in France and elsewhere in Europe.

Muslim extremists are far from the only ones that use romanticized historical struggles to justify current violent actions. That guy who shot up the mosque in New Zealand was inspired by the Ottoman siege of Vienna in the 1,600s (which is actually a really fascinating story).

[CliffFletcher]

Within living memory, a French colonial regime carried out wide-scale brutality and atrocities against the Vietnamese. French colonial treatment of places like Senegal and the Ivory Coast wasn’t noted for its mildness either. There are an estimated half a million Vietnamese, and 2-3 million people of sub-Saharan African origin living in France today. No doubt many of them are poor and alienated. So why aren’t they killing people?

[JR449]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The reason France is suffering these attacks is it’s a defiantly secular country, where religion is explicitly excluded from government services. It’s also a highly liberal country in its art, treatment of sexuality, and political culture.

This, unsurprisingly, is going make the assimilation of groups for whom religion is inseparable from public life, and where very conservative cultural norms still dominate, very difficult.

There is an economic aspect to the alienation of some immigrant populations (though the father of Paty’s killer built up a car dealership business, and gave his son his own car). But Macron is the wrong person to go after on that count, as he’s trying to liberalize the country’s economy and make it more dynamic, a change that would make it easier for young immigrants and the children of immigrants to get a foothold in work.

Hasnt this change been kinda going on for 60 + years? They been liberalizing for a long time to begin with.

[blankall]

To be fair, it's not just France that suffering these attacks. The Netherlands, Belgium, the UK, Spain, and Germany have all had several attacks against them in recent years.

Although AFC's approach is crass, he does make a solid point about marginalization of non-white/Christian people in Europe. European identity really is at a turning point, where people in European countries aren't sure how to identify themselves. For example does being French mean you have French ethnicity, language, culture, history, etc? There are most certainly large marginalized communities of Muslim people across Europe. You mix that with an extreme ideology, in this case religious fanaticism, and you've got a serious problem.

[Regulator75]

Religion of Peace...

My imaginary sky daddy is offended, I shall behead you!!!

[Flamenspiel]

“Both sides, many sides”. Killers and church goers in this case.

[Regulator75]

[troutman]

Several people have been injured in Vienna, Austria, following reported shooting, police say
Authorities say that several people have been injured in central Vienna following reported exchanges of gunfire. According to reports, the incident may have taken place near the vicinity of a synagogue. Residents are being told to avoid "all public places" within the area.

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe...b04250ff842847

[blankall]

Originally Posted by troutman

Several people have been injured in Vienna, Austria, following reported shooting, police say
Authorities say that several people have been injured in central Vienna following reported exchanges of gunfire. According to reports, the incident may have taken place near the vicinity of a synagogue. Residents are being told to avoid "all public places" within the area.

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe...b04250ff842847

Apparently, the synagogue proximity could have been a coincidence, as the the synagogue was closed at the time. The added aspect of people being targeted due to religious beliefs or ethnicity always makes these attacks worse.

One shooter dead. Another on the run.