Does Fox win the Norris in only his second NHL season?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by driveway

Why in the blue hell shouldn't an adult be allowed to choose who they work for? Because we are fans of the laundry the hockey team in Calgary wears? Idiotic.

The draft itself is an archaic idea. The notion that capable adults are required to enter into unbreakable contracts if they wish to work in a specific industry is completely bonkers. The draft as a whole practice should be done away with.

Give teams an annual rookie salary cap. The lowest performing teams from the previous season get the largest amount of rookie money they are able to spend. Then it works the same way free-agency does.

If players had that type of full control, then in reverse the owners should full control to release a player under contract without any penalty?

Might as well make the league go crazy

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Roger

I find it pathetic that so many grown men are bitter at a young man for plotting out and achieving his dream, with integrity, in a world that will chew you up and spit you out. This is like being mad at the girl you asked to the prom, who said yes, and showed up, for not subsequently marrying you. Meanwhile, the E=NG thread is riddled with mocking McDavid for choosing to stay with the team that drafted him.

Adam Fox owes the Calgary Flames, and the fans, nothing. Please excuse the Harvard educated man for abiding by NHL drafting rules, to get to where he wanted to be, as soon as he could. Should he apologize for using his brain, or do we expect hockey players to buy in to some kind of Stockholm Syndrome?

Not many people want to live in Detroit, but for a long time, many hockey players did. If you want to be mad, be mad at our mediocre/crap team for not being a destination. That might have swayed Fox into wanting to stay. As it was, was before that, still is, and probably will be for the next bunch of years, there is no reason for a talent like that to give up his dreams and decide to play in Calgary, simply because we scratched a lotto ticket.

It’s not a question of being mad at the player. I don’t want to see the NHL go the way of the NBA or European football. I want my team to have as good a chance of winning a championship as any other. And that competitive viability relies on things like a draft, a salary cap, and restrictions on player movement. If that means a couple hundred fantastically wealthy young athletes have to spend a few years living in cities they would rather not live in, then tough ####.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

[Dajazz]

I hated the trade at first, then came around, but recently I’ve started to hate it. Hannifin is Bouwmeester except he’s nowhere near defensively and sure, he’s young, so who knows. Lindholm is great for sure, but he’s a complementary piece and at the time he was not the player he is today.

Hamilton was and is a Norris stud, but he didn’t fit in to the North American “Big Bad Bruiser” stereotype so he got a lot of hate. Fox was looking good then, but I could not fathom this level. Ferland, well, in hindsight it’s a great trade, but at the time he was a bruising 20-25g scorer who could not only finish, but also skate and forecheck. Guess what we are lacking now.

This is why I’ve turned on Treliving, this and the Neal/Brouwer signings coupled with the Hamonic fiasco are three major failures. Add Ward and Gulutzan as well as the Tkachuk contract handling which was a result of his screwing up the cap situation.

I like the Rangers (Lundqvist Swede connection of course)so I’m happy for Fox though.

This team sure makes it hard for me to like it....

[heep223]

#### this whole ####ing #### season right in its stupid ####.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

I hated the trade at first, then came around, but recently I’ve started to hate it. Hannifin is Bouwmeester except he’s nowhere near defensively and sure, he’s young, so who knows. Lindholm is great for sure, but he’s a complementary piece and at the time he was not the player he is today.

Hamilton was and is a Norris stud, but he didn’t fit in to the North American “Big Bad Bruiser” stereotype so he got a lot of hate. Fox was looking good then, but I could not fathom this level. Ferland, well, in hindsight it’s a great trade, but at the time he was a bruising 20-25g scorer who could not only finish, but also skate and forecheck. Guess what we are lacking now.

This is why I’ve turned on Treliving, this and the Neal/Brouwer signings coupled with the Hamonic fiasco are three major failures. Add Ward and Gulutzan as well as the Tkachuk contract handling which was a result of his screwing up the cap situation.

I like the Rangers (Lundqvist Swede connection of course)so I’m happy for Fox though.

This team sure makes it hard for me to like it....

Funny, I thought the knock on Bouwmeester was he sucked defensively while in Calgary.

[Dajazz]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Funny, I thought the knock on Bouwmeester was he sucked defensively while in Calgary.

Funny, he was awful offensively to me, never close to Florida numbers.

[Jiri Hrdina]

You are ignoring all the contract factors
The Flames got two young top of the lineup players
At worst it’s a trade that has worked for both teams
Nowhere near the Hamonic and Neal failures

[Strange Brew]

Lindholm at his contract is the very best value on the team and it's not particularly close. Acquiring him was a huge win. He's probably the best thing this club has going for it.

But you also need elite players to win and you have to figure out a way to pay them.

As it turns out, Hamilton wouldn't have been the difference in this club competing IMO so we'd be sitting in a tough spot right now with him approaching UFA. The better answer would have been him fitting better here and wanting to play here long term.
In the reality we live in, Flames did as good as you could expect dealing away two elite players who didn't want to be here.

It does sting that you might look back one day and realize you dealt away two future Norris winners.

[Jiri Hrdina]

It will be interesting to see if Dougie does win a Norris or even get consideration. If he doesn't, I think it's another sign of him being undervalues because he "doesn't fit the mold" of an NHL player.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Funny, I thought the knock on Bouwmeester was he sucked defensively while in Calgary.

He’s one of those guys who plays good defensively 90% of the time, with his reach, skating and position, but isn’t punishing and not a threat along the wall. Mike Peca on commentary once claimed that players liked playing against him because it was a soft night and you knew you could come out of the corner with the puck. I liken him to Backlund. Good defensively but you aren’t afraid of being covered in bruises.

I think Jaybo was unpopular because he was expected to do more offensively here, and didn’t. With Hamilton, the issue wasn’t offence or defence IMO. He was prone to the odd mistake but his issue was that he didn’t look like he was trying hard, mainly because he was just a really smooth skater. I also think the “he’s odd and doesn’t fit in” was a real, if overblown, thing on the team (but not specific to museums).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Lindholm at his contract is the very best value on the team and it's not particularly close. Acquiring him was a huge win. He's probably the best thing this club has going for it.

But you also need elite players to win and you have to figure out a way to pay them.

As it turns out, Hamilton wouldn't have been the difference in this club competing IMO so we'd be sitting in a tough spot right now with him approaching UFA. The better answer would have been him fitting better here and wanting to play here long term.
In the reality we live in, Flames did as good as you could expect dealing away two elite players who didn't want to be here.

It does sting that you might look back one day and realize you dealt away two future Norris winners.

Sutter released one. We just got lucky and he came back.

With Fox it doesn’t sting at all. He was never a Flame in my mind, just an asset who would never have played here ever. There’s lots of worse “he would have been great here” trades where the player would have happily stayed. Hull, MSL, Savard.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Here's why it stings. To build a contender you need to make a lot of smart decisions but you also need some things to break your way. The Lightning had some high picks but two of their most important players were steals: Kucherov and Point. They've had other great picks too.

The Flames had a home run with Jonny. Adam Fox represented another one - as adding a guy with his skill, who is a #1 dman already is a game changer.

The asset was well managed and value extracted from it. And the organization still did very well for what they got out of the 3rd round pick.

But the disadvantage created by these guys not wanting to play in Calgary is a real thing. This team would be in a different state if Adam Fox was patrolling the blueline, with a far bright future.

That's what stings. I think Canadian clubs are at a disadvantage because
- More players don't want to play here
- You have to overpay to get them and keep them
- And I think the Canadian owners for the most part try to contend too fast and blow the re-builds.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It will be interesting to see if Dougie does win a Norris or even get consideration. If he doesn't, I think it's another sign of him being undervalues because he "doesn't fit the mold" of an NHL player.

I’d expect it would be because Hamilton is Phaneuf-like when it comes to play in his own zone, flailing around bewildered when the other team has the puck. Put me in the camp that feels a d-man who needs a partner to babysit and cover up his errors in his own zone is not Norris calibre.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’d expect it would be because Hamilton is Phaneuf-like when it comes to play in his own zone, flailing around bewildered when the other team has the puck. Put me in the camp that feels a d-man who needs a partner to babysit and cover up his errors in his own zone is not Norris calibre.

Really, Slavin, his defense partner, deserves credit.
He is a huge part of what turned the team around and he’s the main pillar of the Hurricane defense.
There’s no way Hamilton produces like this with Slavin as the defensive anchor.

In fact, I’d even say Slavin is simply a better defenseman than Hamilton by a decent margin.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You are ignoring all the contract factors
The Flames got two young top of the lineup players
At worst it’s a trade that has worked for both teams
Nowhere near the Hamonic and Neal failures

The trade only really works out from a contract perspective because of the Ferland injury, unless the assumption is that the Flames could not have signed him for 3.5 million a year.

If Ferland is not injured, and remained a physical 40 point guy who pots 15-20, and Hamilton is what he has been the past 3 seasons, it is hard to argue that for those 3 seasons their combined 9.2 million would not have been better spent than the combined 9.8 million spent on Lindholm and Hanifin over the past 3 years. That is not even counting what Fox is worth.

But Ferland got injured, so the trade looks a lot better for Calgary.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sutter released one. We just got lucky and he came back.

With Fox it doesn’t sting at all. He was never a Flame in my mind, just an asset who would never have played here ever. There’s lots of worse “he would have been great here” trades where the player would have happily stayed. Hull, MSL, Savard.

What does Sutter have to do with this conversation?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sutter released one. We just got lucky and he came back.

That's a false comment and you know it. Sutter offered him a two way deal and kept his rights as a RFA. After he played in Russia for a year he did get the one way deal he wanted.

At no point in time did the Flames release his rights for 29 other teams to have him for nothing, or refuse to match an official RFA contract offered by another team. If you're going to make 50 posts a day..at least be factual with them.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sutter released one. We just got lucky and he came back.

Hopefully Ryan Francis comes back to the Flamea after we released him this year. Fingers crossed.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

- And I think the Canadian owners for the most part try to contend too fast and blow the re-builds.

In Canadian markets teams who are competing for a playoff spot, tend to fill the building, and even 2-3 home games can make the team profitable. The media coverage that you get from making moves in the Summer to generate buzz and interest also tend to help with selling the team. So I do think there is some truth to the idea that the owners don't put as much stock in longer term rebuilds due to their fear of not being profitable in the short term by not making the playoffs and having buildings at 1500 fans under capacity when the team is not very good and the expectations are low.