11-28-2021, 05:00 PM
|
#221
|
#1 Goaltender
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsFlames
Some don't, and that's unfortunate.
He was the beginning of this rebuild and the first to re-stoke the fires of hope with his 22 goal rookie campaign playing with vets and NO Gaudreau.
|
I don't know why I hear this so often. Hudler and Cammalleri weren't chopped liver. They were good players. Hudler even lead the league in even strength points in 2014-15.
For me, the real unfortunate thing is that the rebuilding years of 2013 and 2014 yielded Sam Bennett and Sean Monahan as this organization's top draft picks. Monahan isn't providing much for this team this right now and neither are the assets acquired in the Sam Bennett trade. This team would be so much further ahead had this organization drafted a William Nylander, Nikolaj Ehlers or even a Bo Horvat instead.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Classic_Sniper For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 05:00 PM
|
#222
|
Franchise Player
|
It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.
I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.
|
|
|
11-28-2021, 05:05 PM
|
#223
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Calgary
|
Up until this past season Monahan has been worth every single penny of his contract.
And even then, I'm willing to give Monahan the entire season this to work it out. Flames are playing great hockey and can afford to ride this out. It'd be a much different story if results were not good. But right now, let Monahan keep plugging away.
__________________
"Everybody's so desperate to look smart that nobody is having fun anymore" -Jackie Redmond
|
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to dammage79 For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 05:05 PM
|
#224
|
Lifetime Suspension
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
I don't know why I hear this so often. Hudler and Cammalleri weren't chopped liver. They were good players. Hudler even lead the league in even strength points in 2014-15.
For me, the real unfortunate thing is that the rebuilding years of 2013 and 2014 yielded Sam Bennett and Sean Monahan as this organization's top draft picks. Monahan isn't providing much for this team this right now and neither are the assets acquired in the Sam Bennett trade. This team would be so much further ahead had this organization drafted a William Nylander, Nikolaj Ehlers or even a Bo Horvat instead.
|
Edit: I was wrong. Hudler was signed way earlier than I remember.
Last edited by djsFlames; 11-28-2021 at 05:08 PM.
|
|
|
11-28-2021, 05:49 PM
|
#225
|
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cleveland, OH (Grew up in Calgary)
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOfan
Unfair and inaccurate.
Neal was a poison probably before he even set foot in the locker room. He pouted and sulked and who knows what else he did behind closed doors. The Flames could not get rid of him fast enough.
Monahan is a pro. He cares and he is doing the best he can with what’s been asked. If injuries have set his abilities back, that’s an unfortunate circumstance for the team, but worse for him. It’s too bad but he’s not the first and certainly won’t be the last to have injuries limit his effectiveness or change him from what he once was.
|
There really needs to be a serious discussion about pain tolerance/playing through injuries and how much is too much before it fully effects someone’s career
__________________
Just trying to do my best
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Hockey_Ninja For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:26 PM
|
#226
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.
I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.
|
Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.
Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.
|
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:36 PM
|
#227
|
#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Dallas
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat
Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.
Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.
|
Joe Thornton proped up Cheecho
In a way Johnny did Monahan.
|
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:42 PM
|
#228
|
Appealing my suspension
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Just outside Enemy Lines
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat
Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.
Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.
|
Kyle Turris is another guy who free fell by his 30th birthday.
__________________
"Some guys like old balls"
Patriots QB Tom Brady
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Sylvanfan For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:51 PM
|
#229
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat
Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.
Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.
|
Like Monahan, both were one-dimensional players who fell off a cliff once that element of their game declined.
This is why GMs have to be ruthless with asset management. Hoping a declining player bounces back isn’t a strategy. And getting less for a player than you hoped, and less than he would have a returned a season sooner, is better than getting nothing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
|
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:52 PM
|
#230
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat
Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.
Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.
|
Cheechoo benefited a ton from Thornton. That era's Rob Brown if you will.
|
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:53 PM
|
#231
|
Franchise Player
|
Matt Duchene is bucking the trend - he looked D-O-N-E. This year PPG.
he's a guy that produces the enough occasional good years that GMs overlook the rest which is largely mediocre.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-28-2021, 06:57 PM
|
#232
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
This is why GMs have to be ruthless with asset management. Hoping a declining player bounces back isn’t a strategy. And getting less for a player than you hoped, and less than he would have a returned a season sooner, is better than getting nothing.
|
You mean like how the Flames were ruthless with Sam Bennett?
__________________
WARNING: The preceding message may not have been processed in a sarcasm-free facility.
|
|
|
11-28-2021, 07:12 PM
|
#233
|
Pent-up
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina
Cheechoo benefited a ton from Thornton. That era's Rob Brown if you will.
|
Cheechoo was ALL Thornton. He had 96 assists that season.
|
|
|
11-28-2021, 08:31 PM
|
#234
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache
Even Ferland who somehow a lot of people really liked, I think more from the Vancouver series than subsequent regular seasons) was a 20 goal 40 point guy. That is really not very special on a top line.
Monahan by contrast has averaged 28 goals per 82 games over his entire career now
|
You're comparing a guy who played PP1, 3v3, etc vs a guy who did not. Hardly apples-to-apples here. In fact when you "contrast" those two that way you're just creating smoke-and-mirrors as to their actual on-ice impacts.
When Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland was a line (February 7th 2017 to March 21st 2018), here was the 5v5 production of the team's forwards:
Not only was Ferland outproducing Matthew Tkachuk 5v5, but he had a slightly higher primary points rate than Monahan too (1.86 vs 1.72), and it's not as if this line was ALWAYS together over that period - when they went cold it was always Ferland who would find himself demoted down to guys like Brouwer and Stajan. While there's some argument to be made that a centre might be expected to have a higher secondary assist rate than a non-elite winger, it's pretty evident that Ferland's secondary assist rate was unsustainably low over that period (same argument might be made for Matthew Tkachuk and Sam Bennett too). Secondary assists are by far the most noisy of point stats, since there's very little repeatability in them from year-to-year.
What's really telling however, specific to Monahan, is that his IPP (individual points percentage) is pretty average, not unlike like Ferland and Backlund. Gaudreau was a full tier above everyone else - if the team was scoring when he was on the ice, he was almost certainly picking up a point on that scoring play.
Sean Monahan's a player who needs Gaudreau a lot more than Gaudreau ever needed Monahan (although that period where Gulutzan stapled Nick Shore to Gaudreau was some kind of awful). The idea that Johnny-Mony was ever a mutually beneficial relationship was probably a falsehood in relative terms. A guy like Kucherov gets to play with Brayden Point. A guy like Ovechkin got to play with guys like Kuznetsov and Backstrom. Huberdeau got to play Barkov. Gaudreau, relatively speaking, was unfortunate to have to play with Monahan all those years.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
Last edited by GranteedEV; 11-28-2021 at 08:37 PM.
|
|
|
11-29-2021, 08:17 AM
|
#235
|
Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightslayer
Don't think it's negativity. Fan 960 guys are usually pretty pro Flames and they've been beating the buy him out drum the last 2 weeks or so.
I really don't think anyone would take him at his salary even if it's only one year. I think Flames would need to give up assets to get rid of his contract.
|
Two months into a season after an off season surgery, and a guy on a 40 point pace is getting bought out by some, and this isn't negative?
Finding other negative people isn't proof of realism!
|
|
|
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Bingo For This Useful Post:
|
|
11-29-2021, 08:19 AM
|
#236
|
Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.
I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.
|
I don't think his shot is gone, I think his ability to get to where he needs to get to is hampered by the hip, so he doesn't have time to get the shot off.
He wasn't fast to begin with, and I don't think I notice a change to his top speed, but off the blocks he looks limited.
|
|
|
11-29-2021, 10:11 AM
|
#237
|
#1 Goaltender
|
Buyout won’t happen. I’m assuming the team success this year has bought Treliving another year or two in charge (which I strongly dislike) and I can’t see him buying out another one of his contracts. GM’s often act with short sighted self preservation in mind and optics do matter
But in terms of retaining salary/taking back players I think the team will get creative to move on from him in the offseason. The team has evolved past him to the point where he can be mediocre for a quarter of the season and the team barely feels it standings wise. I think it was a massive mistake to not shut him down last year, I don’t think his absence would have been felt at all compared to what we got from him injured
Things don’t seem to be getting better for him this season. Best game was against a tired Sens half NHL team and then he disappeared again. Pucks die on his stick constantly, he doesn’t move his feet, and he’s basically being used as a decoy on the powerplay
|
|
|
11-29-2021, 10:16 AM
|
#238
|
Appealing my suspension
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Just outside Enemy Lines
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
Two months into a season after an off season surgery, and a guy on a 40 point pace is getting bought out by some, and this isn't negative?
Finding other negative people isn't proof of realism!
|
The issue is that the team has 4 guys who look like they are pretty key to the short and mid term future of this team who are up for new contracts next season.
His salary and production this year can be accommodated within the teams Cap Structure. But come next season, if you end up losing one of these guys to keep a 40 point power play producer who isn't helping you at even strength that will not be easy to take. Especially if Lucic plays out the year too. That will be a good chunk of change on guys who offer less on ice production.
The laws of nature would seem to suggest that a 27 year old forward who has been thru extensive injuries which have caused a sever regression in production more often than not will not be able to regain past form.
There are some guys who given time to rest have been able to regain close to their old form, Gary Roberts and Teemu Selanne come to mind. Others like Owen Nolan were able to come back and play at a lesser level after some recovery time. But all those guys were off for at least one year be it a lockout or other absences before that happened.
We see how this plays out, but my early observation is that it's not very promising right now.
__________________
"Some guys like old balls"
Patriots QB Tom Brady
|
|
|
11-29-2021, 10:31 AM
|
#239
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.
I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.
|
We've talked at length on this board about the numerous injuries to Monny over the years.
This is not a mystery.
Unless he recovers from these, the Monny of old may never re-surfaces.
|
|
|
11-29-2021, 10:53 AM
|
#240
|
#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Uranus
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by dammage79
Up until this past season Monahan has been worth every single penny of his contract.
And even then, I'm willing to give Monahan the entire season this to work it out. Flames are playing great hockey and can afford to ride this out. It'd be a much different story if results were not good. But right now, let Monahan keep plugging away.
|
Disagree completely. He's never given the team a 200 foot game, nor has he proven able to generate his own offense is any way shape or form. Now that he's been unhinged from Gaudreau completely, he's basically useless to the franchise and this has nothing to do with his latest injury - it started long before that time.
__________________
I hate to tell you this, but I’ve just launched an air biscuit
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Hot_Flatus For This Useful Post:
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:58 PM.
|
|