Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

But there aren't any potential markets that are as strong as the market the Flames currently reside. The only reason to move this Flames team would be one of pride, such as, Edwards not willing to publicly lose this negotiation with Nenshi.

An outside entity would not hold the same animosity toward Nenshi, and so I can't see a scenario where relocation would be on the table with a new ownership group.

No..the only reason to move the team is if there is no deal to build a new arena...kind of what this whole thing is about.

Any new ownership group isnt gonna give a lick about their standing within the Calgary community, whereas the current one may hold that above all else.

As for your last paragraph, are you suggesting Nenshi would be more accommodating to a different ownership group? I certainly would hope not but if so, he should resign immediately as that means this whole thing has become nothing but personal for him and there is zero room for that stuff in his position.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by stamps

I think asking , not demanding ... not a deal breaker ...

Since having it actually agreed to would reduce the few tangible benefits the team would provide, we can only assume it was 'requested' for no other reason than the be something they could easily concede to try and convince people they're really giving up things in negotiations even though it is something that provides them no actual benefit and only hurts the city.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No..the only reason to move the team is if there is no deal to build a new arena...kind of what this whole thing is about.

Any new ownership group isnt gonna give a lick about their standing within the Calgary community, whereas the current one may hold that above all else.

As for your last paragraph, are you suggesting Nenshi would be more accommodating to a different ownership group? I certainly would hope not but if so, he should resign immediately as that means this whole thing has become nothing but personal for him and there is zero room for that stuff in his position.

Ok, so the Flames move to Houston. The Saddledome is empty for five minutes before the Arizona group goes 'we'd like to trade haemorrhaging money in a new building in the league's worst market for not haemorrhaging money in one of the top 10 markets and an old building with a ####ty service elevator'.

And Re: Nenshi. The Flames could have an arena tomorrow if they wanted. They cannot and will not have the entire thing paid for by the city + infrastructure + no property taxes + no lease + future holographic scoreboards etc. Nenshi is not negotiating the deal. He is one vote of a council that voted unanimously against CSEC's proposals.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Which is why they included The Bow, and weren't sneaky about it, and consistently mention it whenever somebody (i.e Ken King) use a CRL as a funding model.

It delayed the Bow's tax dollars from reaching the city's general revenue (and the province) as a bet that the capital projects funded with it will return a greater amount in the future than if the money hadn't been diverted, without taking away from the city's existing operating budget. They're on track to achieve that, making it a net benefit to the city in the long run from a pure financial perspective without taking into account the benefits of turning a blighted, undeveloped area and turning it into a good one.


None of this has been hidden away or avoided, it constantly gets brought up. So what are you continuously going on about? CMLC still has a budget to work with to facilitate development, and they're doing great with it.

The Bow wasn't included in the original application. It was added, or zoned, after the fact because the original CRL for the EV would not be feasible, or approved by the government, without the billion dollar buildings taxes included.

As to whether CSEC has the ability to develop the area, I think I would put my trust in a group of men who have developed billions of dollars of projects with all levels of government over a group of people who can't even deal with secondary suites in the city (city council has been dealing with this for years and can not even solve this simple item).

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

The Bow wasn't included in the original application. It was added, or zoned, after the fact because the original CRL for the EV would not be feasible, or approved by the government, without the billion dollar buildings taxes included.

As to whether CSEC has the ability to develop the area, I think I would put my trust in a group of men who have developed billions of dollars of projects with all levels of government over a group of people who can't even deal with secondary suites in the city (city council has been dealing with this for years and can not even solve this simple item).

Yeah, those visionary Flames owners who figured out oil was valuable. And that rich people like to go skiing. Murray Musk, up in here.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Ok, so the Flames move to Houston. The Saddledome is empty for five minutes before the Arizona group goes 'we'd like to trade haemorrhaging money in a new building in the league's worst market for not haemorrhaging money in one of the top 10 markets and an old building with a ####ty service elevator'.

And Re: Nenshi. The Flames could have an arena tomorrow if they wanted. They cannot and will not have the entire thing paid for by the city + infrastructure + no property taxes + no lease + future holographic scoreboards etc. Nenshi is not negotiating the deal. He is one vote of a council that voted unanimously against CSEC's proposals.

First off he's the mayor, the CEO of the city. Stop acting like he's only got as much power as Evan Wolley. This "only one vote" routine is tired and misleading.

Secondly, right after a new team or ownership group gets established in Calgary the first thing they'll do is....start working on a new stadium deal. This issue isnt going away as long as there's an NHL team in this city, which judging by your assertion that the coyotes will immediately move here sounds like is your preference.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Yeah, those visionary Flames owners who figured out oil was valuable. And that rich people like to go skiing. Murray Musk, up in here.

Which multi-billion dollar company are you CEO of? You just make it sound so easy

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Ok, so the Flames move to Houston. The Saddledome is empty for five minutes before the Arizona group goes 'we'd like to trade haemorrhaging money in a new building in the league's worst market for not haemorrhaging money in one of the top 10 markets and an old building with a ####ty service elevator'.

And the BoG says...nope.

then what?

At some point the Dome needs to be replaced, for multiple reasons. (sooner rather than later at that)

If you actually think the dome is adequate for a city of this size and compared to every other arena in the league, you need to go see some others.

And to bring this all back on point, no as it stands right now there is little chance that the team moves. For now. That won't last in perpetuity however.

Again though, at some point an arena will need to be constructed by someone/group/partnership and without question the city will be a part of that, particularly moreso if they want an Olympic games to come to town. Which they seem quite serious about after spending a good chunk of dough to send 6 or 7 politicians from municipal and provincial levels over to South Korea....which they just announced they are doing.

Do they want the CSEC as a partner in that or would they like to do it on their own? That's where it seems to be at right now.

[stamps]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Yeah, those visionary Flames owners who figured out oil was valuable.

As opposed to the people who figured out oil was valuable but lacked any vision to actually do anything with ?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

The Bow wasn't included in the original application. It was added, or zoned, after the fact because the original CRL for the EV would not be feasible, or approved by the government, without the billion dollar buildings taxes included.

Yes. Again, nobody has tried to hide this fact. It is brought up constantly whenever it is brought up. Including several times in this thread.

As to whether CSEC has the ability to develop the area, I think I would put my trust in a group of men who have developed billions of dollars of projects with all levels of government over a group of people who can't even deal with secondary suites in the city (city council has been dealing with this for years and can not even solve this simple item).

Council isn't in charge of development, be it the East Village, Victoria Park, or elsewhere. So no worries there.

Also developing oil sands projects in Northern Alberta is also a lot different than urban revitilization or throwing money to get your name on the side of the building. What sort of urban renewal experience do any of the members of CSEC have that the CMLC does not?

Remember, this is the company who wanted a CRL to fund their arena(+ stadium), so they seem to know less about it than the people who knew they needed to add The Bow footprint to the CRL area to actually secure loans.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

First off he's the mayor, the CEO of the city. Stop acting like he's only got as much power as Evan Wolley. This "only one vote" routine is tired and misleading.

Secondly, right after a new team or ownership group gets established in Calgary the first thing they'll do is....start working on a new stadium deal. This issue isnt going away as long as there's an NHL team in this city, which judging by your assertion that the coyotes will immediately move here sounds like is your preference.

He's not leading the negotiation, and he doesn't have some cabal of councillors that's holding up the deal. He hasn't vetoed anything (does the mayor even have that power? I don't know).

The terms CSEC are asking for are unreasonable. Covering a third of the cost on the city's side is unreasonable. There is a way forward.

All I'm asking is they not play this relocation BS. It's not a threat. It makes the team look bad and serves no purpose but to get people riled up. The council doesn't and shouldn't care if the Flames leave. Their response should be 'there's the door'.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

He's not leading the negotiation, and he doesn't have some cabal of councillors that's holding up the deal. He hasn't vetoed anything (does the mayor even have that power? I don't know).

The terms CSEC are asking for are unreasonable. Covering a third of the cost on the city's side is unreasonable. There is a way forward.

All I'm asking is they not play this relocation BS. It's not a threat. It makes the team look bad and serves no purpose but to get people riled up. The council doesn't and shouldn't care if the Flames leave. Their response should be 'there's the door'.

Really?

I find that extremely unlikely.

I think they should and do care. They shouldn't be held hostage over it, but you better believe they dont want the team leaving. At least the vast majority of them.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

First off he's the mayor, the CEO of the city. Stop acting like he's only got as much power as Evan Wolley. This "only one vote" routine is tired and misleading.

After a quick view of the Alberta Municipal Government Act I don't see anything that imparts any hard powers to the mayor beyond those also granted to counselors.

Any other power he may have are of the persuasion variety.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Ok, so the Flames move to Houston. The Saddledome is empty for five minutes before the Arizona group goes 'we'd like to trade haemorrhaging money in a new building in the league's worst market for not haemorrhaging money in one of the top 10 markets and an old building with a ####ty service elevator'.

And Re: Nenshi. The Flames could have an arena tomorrow if they wanted. They cannot and will not have the entire thing paid for by the city + infrastructure + no property taxes + no lease + future holographic scoreboards etc. Nenshi is not negotiating the deal. He is one vote of a council that voted unanimously against CSEC's proposals.

Gary Bettman is pretty clear that moving a franchise means moving a franchise to a new city. so if the Flames leave, and someone wants to move a team here the NHL will basically say, new arena first.

Also looking at the Flames valuation from the Forbes article their operating income was only about $5 million dollars which would rank them 21th in the league, and their revenue was about $129 million, which was about 22nd in the league. Lets not have this over inflated opinion about how good of a situation the Flames are in this city.

If the NHL does leave, its unlikely that it comes back without a new building with new revenue streams in place first.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Gary Bettman is pretty clear that moving a franchise means moving a franchise to a new city. so if the Flames leave, and someone wants to move a team here the NHL will basically say, new arena first.

Also looking at the Flames valuation from the Forbes article their operating income was only about $5 million dollars which would rank them 21th in the league, and their revenue was about $129 million, which was about 22nd in the league. Lets not have this over inflated opinion about how good of a situation the Flames are in this city.

If the NHL does leave, its unlikely that it comes back without a new building with new revenue streams in place first.

The Flames are welcome to open up their books to dispel these nasty rumours about their operating income and profitability.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The Flames are welcome to open up their books to dispel these nasty rumours about their operating income and profitability.

Seems odd that a business in such dire straits as to need hundreds of millions of dollars in public assistance to remain viable, or a need to move is so reluctant to do just that.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

The Bow wasn't included in the original application. It was added, or zoned, after the fact because the original CRL for the EV would not be feasible, or approved by the government, without the billion dollar buildings taxes included.

As to whether CSEC has the ability to develop the area, I think I would put my trust in a group of men who have developed billions of dollars of projects with all levels of government over a group of people who can't even deal with secondary suites in the city (city council has been dealing with this for years and can not even solve this simple item).

I think this has been brought up with the problem by the city for both CalgaryNext and the Flames proposal for EV. Both proposals, the Flames said a CRL would pick up the tab for the city side; but, as EV showed, there is big risk in a CRL that isn't grounded by an anchor tenant. Who is that tenant in both proposals? The Arena will take up a huge amount of space and, according to the Flames, will pay no property taxes.

CRL's are risky, and the city or CMLC haven't denied that. They aren't used often in Calgary unlike places like Chicago - and there are reasons for that.

Comparing Oil CEO's success to City Council's futility is a laughable argument. Also, CMLC isn't City Council.

Murray Edwards and Co. surely have little clue into how to build neighbourhoods, and I am positive they are the type of guys who would say as much.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

First off he's the mayor, the CEO of the city. Stop acting like he's only got as much power as Evan Wolley. This "only one vote" routine is tired and misleading.

I don't know if that is the right analogy. I think a closer analogy would be the Mayor and council are Board of Directors. The City Manager would likely be in a role similar to a CEO.

These aren't directly analogous but government and business never is.

[GioforPM]

Rightly or wrongly I think the Flames owners would "wear" a move less than Nenshi. Nenshi has the biggest name recognition and I would bet that most Calgarians haven't heard of any owners aside from Edwards. Or they wouldn't care - Edwards doesn't live here, the others are older men at the end of their careers, aside from McCaig who's a youthful 65.

I take the former Quebec mayor's self-assessment of his popularity with a grain of salt. Plus, that team wasn't as big a community fixture - only 16 years old. The Flames are over twice as old a franchise (in Calgary).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

After a quick view of the Alberta Municipal Government Act I don't see anything that imparts any hard powers to the mayor beyond those also granted to counselors.

Any other power he may have are of the persuasion variety.

Voting-wise he's the same (except he's the tie breaker IIRC). He has a much bigger pulpit than ordinary councilors, as you say, which ain't to be sneezed at. But he also has some ability to set policy and control agendas as the chair of meetings. He is also the City rep on a large number of important committees, as well as the boards of various city-affiliated organizations. He's the only official entitled (subject to delegation by him) to liaise with other government levels

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

First off he's the mayor, the CEO of the city. Stop acting like he's only got as much power as Evan Wolley. This "only one vote" routine is tired and misleading.

Nope, he's not. Jeff Fielding is the CEO/Manager of the City of Calgary. Voters don't like to recognize it, but the people we elect aren't anywhere near as powerful as we think. The nuts and bolts work of running the city/province/country, the analysis and project management and delivery, are done by unelected professionals.

Our elected officials just set priorities. And yes, Nenshi is just one person on council. The most influential person on council, but he can't get his way in the face of opposition from most of the councillors. Heck, he's been trying to get his way on secondary suites since he was first elected, and gotten nowhere. If he was the supreme manager of the city like you claim, he'd have gotten the secondary suite issue sorted to his liking five years ago.

The notion that Nenshi is personally responsible for thwarting the CSEC in arena negotiations is a fantasy. The appetite for the city footing half or more of the bill for a new arena simply isn't there. Not among city council. Not among the professionals who run the city. And not among voters.