He redeemed himself to everyone but himself. He dies becuase he always believed what was the worst of him. Oathbeakimg Kingslayer who deserves Cersei. He was an addict who got clean only to relapse and die. It’s not happy but it was meaningful.
I have to admit I was disappointed that Cercei didn't die by the blade of Arya or being eaten by dragon or something violent that would be fitting of her cruelty to others over the years. That said her and Jamie dying together is fitting to wrap up their story in that they were two really bad people that loved each other and only each other as Jamie's last words of "Nothing else matters. Only us." is so fitting in regards to the way they both lived their lives. They never, ever cared about family, all the people that served them, people they murdered or lives destroyed. It was always about them.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 05-13-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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When they slowed things down about half way in with that tension build before and during the bells and surrender, the quality really ramped up into a masterpiece of shock and terror, starting with that first flaming of the citizens. You had to rub your eyes for a moment to really believe it was happening. Dany going full mad queen I think was more effective shell shock than Cersei winning would've been, which would've just been a continuation the losses we'd witnessed piling up for her already. It was a different kind of terror and one that was extremely uncomfortable. When you don't know who's good, and which side is safe any more, it leaves not only characters like Tyrion and Jon in distress, but the rest of us too.
They've literally been following Dany wrestling with the "what type of queen will she be?" dilemma for the better part of the show, and she's been tested and cautioned on that very clearly at several points this season. For people thinking it was a total unexpected u-turn in her character I think have somehow missed all of that. It really wasn't. We know she had poor impulses, and her last defenses keeping her from those died with Jorah and Missandei. But most of all when, as a poster above pointed out, her certainty of having legitimately the best claim (and the love of the people) was truly threatened by Jon. Everything she's believed to be true and in her destiny is in peril, and it only makes sense that now with everything on the line, that the final straw breaks.
Never thought I'd feel sympathy for the population of kings landing after the mobbing, throwing feces, and attempted rape over the seasons, and much more so for let's-wildfire-my-enemies queen Cersei, but for a fleeting moment I did and I hate yet love GOT for pulling that off.
This one was up to the standard that was hoped for. Hopefully the next continues that with some surprises none of us will see coming.
Dany’s reason for going mad took away her choice. Positioning it as a crazy person who lost control rather than a person who chose the throne over innocent lies Doesn’t fit with the character. Every time she used Dragon fire there was purpose even if extreme and over kill. Burning kinglanding to the ground after the surrender didn’t fit. Burning all of the Cililiams in the red keep and ones being used as human shields could have created the same horror while making Dany responsible for mass murder rather than insane.
I agree with most of what you wrote about what the episode did and it was excellent but I don’t think they paid off Dany. Which is the opposite of the flaw in most of the previous episodes where the characterizations were good and the plot was failing.
Assuming none of them name an heir, legally it would be the current head of one of the great houses. But it is unknown if any of them would have the political and military power to hold all the 7 kingdoms together. IMO it would probably just devolve into more civil war with probably Westeros as multiple independent kingdoms.
North - Sansa Stark
Being the "student" of Little Finger and seeming that she has the support of the North and the Vale, she could have the political and military might. But does she want to take the Iron Throne? Or just content to have the North as an independent state?
Stormlands - Gendry Baratheon?
Just named by Dany to rule the Stormlands. But the Stormlands military might has been eroded away by Stanis. As a new lord, Gendry also probably doesn't have the connections and full allegiances of the other nobles.
Riverlands - Edumre Tully?
Last known to be in the Lannister's dungeon at Casterly Rock after Jamie used him to force the pro-Tully forces under the Blackfish to surrender
Doesn't seem to have the strong backbone to rule.
Iron Islands - Yara Greyjoy
Most of the strength of the Iron Islands was just destroyed by Dany. Probably doesn't have the support of the rest of the country
The Vale - Robyn Arryn
Spoiled brat who is probably not even worthy of ruling the Vale, let alone Westeros.
Westerlands - Tyrion Lannister
May not live much longer and may be declared a traitor by Dany before she dies.
The Reach -?
was promised to Bronn if Danyers won, but given Tyrion might not live long that bargain might not be held up. Doesn't have the political and military support anyways.
Dorne - ?
Dorne probably has the freshest soldiers as they kept out of the war of the 5 kings, NK, etc. But given the show has never introduced the new Dornish leader, probably not in the running.
Also a big question if the Dothraki and Unsullied will follow anyone but Dany. Maybe if she named someone her heir they would. But if she doesn't they may just go home. However, if one of the contenders could convince the Dothraki and Unsullied to join them, they would probably have the military might needed to keep the 7 kingdoms under one throne.
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*spend 4 seasons showing an apex of mental control, followed by a spiral decent towards madness*
"That came out of nowhere!"
I think the Mad Queen thing is a bit overstated. We could see her mindset deteriorating over time but to me that was the result of circumstances not random madness. Her closest advisors were killed, except for the one that consistently gave her poor advice; two of her children are dead; the mission she sacrificed much of her army for resulted in a double cross by the same family that double-crossed her family years ago; she increasingly clearly has no support in Westeros; she lost her lover; and she lost her legitimate claim to the throne - everything she has been working towards is falling apart.
So what does she do? She does what conquerors have done since the beginning of time - respond with unforgiving brutality to exact revenge and to make an example of their power for the rest of the realm. Making examples through brutality has been her MO all along - crucifixion, execution by dragon, etc. She made a point of sparing the innocents in the past so that is definitely a turn, but is entirely consistent with real world historical norms, not necessarily indicative of madness.
If she doesn’t do this she leaves herself open to challenge by all the other houses based on Jon’s birthright. Instead she decided to assert her claim through fear - what house will challenge a monarch who is not beyond torching a city? Clearly what she did was overkill, having already shown she can defeat military defences with ease, I’m just not convinced that next step can be easily explained as madness.
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I think the Mad Queen thing is a bit overstated. We could see her mindset deteriorating over time but to me that was the result of circumstances not random madness. Her closest advisors were killed, except for the one that consistently gave her poor advice; two of her children are dead; the mission she sacrificed much of her army for resulted in a double cross by the same family that double-crossed her family years ago; she increasingly clearly has no support in Westeros; she lost her lover; and she lost her legitimate claim to the throne - everything she has been working towards is falling apart.
So what does she do? She does what conquerors have done since the beginning of time - respond with unforgiving brutality to exact revenge and to make an example of their power for the rest of the realm. Making examples through brutality has been her MO all along - crucifixion, execution by dragon, etc. She made a point of sparing the innocents in the past so that is definitely a turn, but is entirely consistent with real world historical norms, not necessarily indicative of madness.
If she doesn’t do this she leaves herself open to challenge by all the other houses based on Jon’s birthright. Instead she decided to assert her claim through fear - what house will challenge a monarch who is not beyond torching a city? Clearly what she did was overkill, having already shown she can defeat military defences with ease, I’m just not convinced that next step can be easily explained as madness.
This is a fair assessment, but as you noted they have many times shown her to be frustrated and blockaded in the last couple seasons and each time she retreats into previous habits more and more.
I suppose the next episode will show whether or not she is truly insane or simply just Cercei Part Deux.
Seeing as Bran was warged into the horse that was there for Arya at the end, why didn't he just warg into Daenerys and have her commit suicide? Maybe Bran is using his knowledge of literally everything to manipulate his way into the Iron Throne. After all telling Jon the truth is what started this chain of events.
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Last edited by Senator Clay Davis; 05-13-2019 at 08:34 AM.
This is a fair assessment, but as you noted they have many times shown her to be frustrated and blockaded in the last couple seasons and each time she retreats into previous habits more and more.
I suppose the next episode will show whether or not she is truly insane or simply just Cercei Part Deux.
No sex from Jon Snow will drive any woman insane!
How much better would this show have been without the effing dragons? and can't Bran just use his powers to control a dragon?
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With the red keep destroyed and if Danny and her Dragon die, I think the whole 7 kingdoms under one king is done. North will head back to do their own thing and the south will be pockets of various people trying to rebuild or make their power play.
Dany’s reason for going mad took away her choice. Positioning it as a crazy person who lost control rather than a person who chose the throne over innocent lies Doesn’t fit with the character.
Of course it fits with the character. She went mad. Madness completely fits considering who she is. Maybe madness overcomes Jon Snow next week, too. They come by it honestly. Also, this didn't just happen quickly like you mentioned earlier. We've seen many glimpses of this coming over the last few episodes. Dany's been fighting this battle for some time.
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As we saw with Cersei (who had no legitimate claim to the throne), it will ultimately be whoever has the might and support of enough powerful people to hold it.
However, under the order of succession that they used to legitimize Robert's claim to the throne, it would be Gendry. If there are no legitimate Targaryen heirs, the next family in line are the Baratheons. Gendry is the last surviving legitimate Baratheon (thanks to Dany).
After the Baratheons, I believe that House Martell of Dorne has the best claim to the Iron Throne in terms of the straight line of descent from Aegon the Conqueror. At this point, we don't even know who is running Dorne after Prince Dr. Bashir was assassinated.
With King's Landing all but destroyed, I could see the Seven Kingdoms all deciding to go their separate ways and become independent Kingdoms again. Although, at this point, they've all been pretty weakened and probably need to work together to rebuild more than at any previous point in history.
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we've seen evidence through the years that Dany would be a cold, unforgiving, vengeful ruler no better than the ones she wanted to replace. she's always had the itchy trigger finger for her enemies and oppressors, but that's a pretty far cry from unhinged genocidal maniac that was triggered by the sound of...victory?
I was expecting her to make a beeline for the Red Keep in an attempt to blow Cersei away, since her bad side has always been about crushing her direct rivals. maybe if the commoners on the ground were hurling insults and flinging buckets of poo at her, it would have been a bit more clear why she got in the mood of burninating innocents for the first time.
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“When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!” - Season 2
Seems pretty in-character to me.
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I would think so, yes. Even if somehow, she and/or Jamie were to survive the collapse of a castle on top of them, it would likely take months to dig them out of the debris. They are done.
I liked the episode a lot. They obviously wanted the destruction of King's Landing to have major impact and it did. They did a masterful job showcasing the terror and brutality of it. The last scene with ashes coming down like snow around Arya was fantastic. The music, as always, was on point.
Also I thought the Cersi/Jamie ending was excellent. I'm glad they didn't do the expected revenge death for Cersi at the hands of another character. Instead we saw her have to realize her power was being wiped away before her eyes during the episode.
I did think the Jamie/Euron and Cleaganbowl fights were both a little bit cheesy -- kind of like the end fights of 80's action flicks. But a lot of those 80's action flicks are pretty enjoyable, so whatever, didn't really ruin it for me.
The best part is that they've still set up a dramatic finale with the aftermath and how everyone is going to deal with Danaerys. It's still a guessing game as to who ends up dead and who gets the throne.
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