Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

What? It’s a time based question haha.

Or let me ask you, have they held on too long since when? Since now? The current situation? That makes no sense.

If the question is "Have they held on too long?", then it has nothing to do with hindsight. It's a question asking if they held on, from draft until now, for too long. How you can't see that this is based on present day knowledge is strange.

If the question is "Should they have drafted someone else?" then it's all about hindsight. That is because we have more information now that at the time of the draft.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Sorry, stopped reading right there.

Your take is entirely Oiler-esque.

There is so much randomness in the draft order and luck of the draw with each player it's ridiculous to suggest it could have been planned better.

Planned and cheering for losing is deplorable. From the top to the fanbase.

What you're talking about is a very slippery slope towards the loser mentality that permeates up north.

You should have kept reading. Later on it was shown that "the real loser mentality" is preaching patience with Bennett.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by CSharp

The thing is, if Bennett has so much potential and he hasn't used it much, trade the guy - maybe it'll be a good thing for him and for the team. Why keep the guy if he's not showing anything and just hanging around and just going through the motions? On most night, he's basically invisible. Janko plays as a third line center and he's showing he belongs with the club, Bennett doesn't and I don't care how highly rated his skills are - show it on a regular basis or move on. It's so ######ed to try and defend the guy when he's got nothing to show.

Let's look at Bennett the Winger Vs. Bennett the Centre:

2015/2016 (vast majority as a Winger): 18G, 18A, 36 Points

57.9% BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL
12.9% BENNETT,SAM - GRANLUND,MARKUS - HUDLER,JIRI
11.6% BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - JOORIS,JOSH
8.8% BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - FERLAND,MICHEAL
8.8% BENNETT,SAM - GRANLUND,MARKUS - RAYMOND,MASON

2016/2017 (vast majority as a Center): 13G, 13A, 26 Points

36% BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - VERSTEEG,KRIS
23.3% BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY
19.6% BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - VERSTEEG,KRIS
11.7% BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - STAJAN,MATTHEW
9.4% BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - MONAHAN,SEAN

2017/2018 (Center, Pre-Jankowski): 9 Games Played, 0 Assists, 0 Points, 0 Points

2017/2018 (Winger, Post-Jankowski): 44 Games Played, 7 Goals, 11 Assists, 18 Points

48.8% BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
24.5% BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - JANKOWSKI,MARK
11.6% BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - LAZAR,CURTIS
10.9% BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - JANKOWSKI,MARK
4.1% BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - VERSTEEG,KRIS

Bennett got buried as a centre with awful linemates.

Bennett got to play with Backlund/Frolik for nearly 60% of his rookie year, and he perfromed well.

Bennett this season, remember his 0 points in 15 games (majority of which were him as a centre with awful wingers)? Eeesh. Look at him since then though. A heck of a December, and 18 points in 38 games since those initial 15 games. Not lighting the world on fire, but given the lack of 1st unit PP and his linemates, it's not "fringe NHL player" bad.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by the2bears

If the question is "Have they held on too long?", then it has nothing to do with hindsight. It's a question asking if they held on, from draft until now, for too long. How you can't see that this is based on present day knowledge is strange.

If the question is "Should they have drafted someone else?" then it's all about hindsight. That is because we have more information now that at the time of the draft.

hind·sight
ˈhīn(d)ˌsīt/Submit
noun
understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

What are you talking about? Again your first paragraph makes no sense at all. How do you answer the question without the use of hindsight? Without the use of present day knowledge of what his value was? You need both.

Let me put it this way. 2 years ago I had $100 that I bought stock X with. 1 year ago my stock value was $50. Today it’s $10. Did I hold onto my money too long?

Without the use of hindsight, knowing what my stock was when I bought it, $100 and then further knowing I could have sold it for $50 (again, hindsight), I would have no idea if my $10 was higher value in the past, and if I should have sold it sooner. Thus I must use hindsight to answer the question. This is the exact same thing.

[The Yen Man]

I think a more appropriate question is have some fans given up too easily. Kid is 21. He's still got time. For better or worse, Bennett's best value for the Flames is with the team. He's not going to fetch more than 2nd round, and if that's the case, you keep him and hope he develops.

I find a lot of people are just not that patient these days. Yes, he may be a bust eventually. Or he may be a late bloomer. I, for one, would rather wait it out, and if he busts he busts. But if he gets traded and breaks out, I'll be real choked.

[Mr.Coffee]

I guess I feel like if a player is taken in the top 5 of the draft, based on recent draft history, it suggests that player is very likely NHL ready (like, will make an impact ready).

I understand patience if the player is a later round draftpick. But these kids taken that high in a draft historically have been very good, very early. That’s why Bennett’s expectations of what he should have been have not been met and as a consequence of that, why clearly the Flames should have sold high on him a year ago to maximize value.

[The Yen Man]

Oh, I totally get the frustration, and I'm wary of the fact he can very well bust. But at this point, I think Flames are stuck with Bennett unless they're willing to sell low on him, which I prefer they don't. He may turn into Yakupov, or he may turn into Scheifele. As a Flames fan, I'm of the opinion you take the chance and ride it out. I still see glimpses of his skill. You just hope he's able to put it all together eventually.

[Thor]

Look at what our patience with Backlund did for us, absolutely not time to move him and considering whom he has played with these years its not at all surprising he's not shining.

[Anduril]

Whatever we would have got for Bennett at any point would have either a) caused a riot because it was too early to tell or b) not be worth anything because of his lackluster performance.

At this point you just try and have him succeed in any way possible.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

hind·sight
ˈhīn(d)ˌsīt/Submit
noun
understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

What are you talking about? Again your first paragraph makes no sense at all. How do you answer the question without the use of hindsight? Without the use of present day knowledge of what his value was? You need both.

Let me put it this way. 2 years ago I had $100 that I bought stock X with. 1 year ago my stock value was $50. Today it’s $10. Did I hold onto my money too long?

Without the use of hindsight, knowing what my stock was when I bought it, $100 and then further knowing I could have sold it for $50 (again, hindsight), I would have no idea if my $10 was higher value in the past, and if I should have sold it sooner. Thus I must use hindsight to answer the question. This is the exact same thing.

There is little doubt, Bennett's value will never be as high, as it was after his 18-goals season. So yes, the Flames have hold on him too long.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Pointman

There is little doubt, Bennett's value will never be as high, as it was after his 18-goals season. So yes, the Flames have hold on him too long.

Bennett's value will never be as low as it is now, Gulutzan suffocated his development and I for one hope for a new coach to bring him back on course.

Only an idiot would trade him now

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Bennett's value will never be as low as it is now, Gulutzan suffocated his development and I for one hope for a new coach to bring him back on course.

Only an idiot would trade him now

He may or may not bounce back, but it is unlikely that he would rebound as high, as he once was. It's almost safe to say he will never be traded for 4th overall.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

He reminds me of Backlund a bit. Confidence is messing with his head. He’s going to be a good two way player one day. It will take some time I think. At this point it would be silly to trade our highest ever pick. I say keep him. I don’t think the Flames have waited too long to trade him. I still think he’ll be worth more to the Flames be it by trade, or as a roster player, in years to come.

[rhino]

My thought with Bennett is that he is not being played in a spot to maximize his talents. His rookie season he did well playing with Backlund and Frolik on the wing. Second season the move him to centre and anchor him with slugs for the most part. You don’t draft a guy fourth overall to play 3rd line minutes and situations. Ferland was inconsistent in both production and effort and he was moved to the top line last year because there was no other option as they wanted to give Bennett reps at centre. The one thing I cannot question is Bennett’s lack of effort. I would love to see him on one of the top 2 lines and see if the points come however right now that is not an option. I honestly don’t know if #19 produces at the same rate on line 3 as he does line 2. Sometimes good players have to play with good players..... just my 2 cents. I would say if they moved Bennett to a new team where he is given the opportunity he would increase the points..... I.e. Sven Baertschi. Facts are sometimes you have good players that play in bad situations because they are not an upgrade to what you have.

[the2bears]

^^Mr.Coffee

Quote on your post is not working for me (actually this has started happening on the site for the occasional post recently)

Hmmm... my connotation of "hindsight" was a bit off, and I did not explain it well. Seeing the definition you posted I can understand your point better. Sorry for being a pedant yesterday.

[CliffFletcher]

Has nothing to do with linemates. Bennett doesn't have the hockey IQ to be an effective player at the NHL level. How he'll process the game at an NHL level seems to be the most difficult trait to project in a draft-age player.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Has nothing to do with linemates. Bennett doesn't have the hockey IQ to be an effective player at the NHL level. How he'll process the game at an NHL level seems to be the most difficult trait to project in a draft-age player.

Please quantify Hockey IQ..... it’s just a buzz phrase for fans. There are examples all over the league of younger players being played in roles that are not suited for them, cases where they are moved and become productive NHL players. Does Bennett take bad penalties at times.... yes he sure does but I don’t think there is any doubt he has the right attitude and given the right opportunity he would be a more consistent point producer. I think for his career they should move him to a better opportunity if they don’t have room on another line...... square peg and round hole.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rhino

Please quantify Hockey IQ...

Anticipating plays - both with the puck and without it. Knowing where to be on the ice. Distributing the puck and using teammates effectively. Using skating to give yourself time and space on the ice.

[cannon7]

I don't know why this team won't give Bennett a extended look on either Monahan's or Backlund's line. He gets a few shifts, at most, then back to being saddled with Brouwer. Sure, you could make the argument that he needs to earn that ice-time, but given how that doesn't really apply under Gulutzan -- why not give it a shot?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by cannon7

I don't know why this team won't give Bennett a extended look on either Monahan's or Backlund's line. He gets a few shifts, at most, then back to being saddled with Brouwer. Sure, you could make the argument that he needs to earn that ice-time, but given how that doesn't really apply under Gulutzan -- why not give it a shot?

Because they want to win and those lines are playing well. You are essentially asking them to discard what is working to get one player going. it also involves a demotion for one of Ferland, Tkachuk or Frolik down to the third line with Jankowski (I assume Johnny is not leaving Monahan's side). Of those players, I'd trust Tkachuk to make the most of it, but he won't be as effective. Ferland and Frolik would be in the same position as Bennett now.

Just watching that third line right now, I'm not sure Brouwer is the issue.