Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Oiler fans were quick to throw Hall under the bus as the problem in the Oiler locker room. This year he is a finalist for the Hart. The discussion is about whether players improve after the 250 game mark. So yeah, I think he fits the reference.

After 250 games the Oiler fans had already cried about how Hall was snubbed by the Olympics and that the Ovechkin blunder cost him a spot on the All-Star list. They hadn't turned on him at that point, to them it was still a matter of how many Stanley Cups he would bring in for the Oilers.

If it was up to Oiler fans, Hall would have had at least 3 Hart Trophies by the time he hit his 250 game mark.

[MacDaddy77]

biggest thing with bennett is he needs to stay out of the box. He hasn't played with any talent yet either but he takes way too many penalties. looking at Reinhart, Bennett and Draisaitl they have same games played but Bennett has 3X the Pim.

SB - GP 241 Pts 89 Pim 171
SR - GP 249 pts 140 Pim 44
LD - GP 269 pts 207 PIM 74


I think if the coach puts him in top 2 lines and gives him some talent to play with and PP 2 time he could get back to the same curve these other 2 are on so long as he stops taking stupid reaching penalties in the offensive zone

[DFO]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Oiler fans were quick to throw Hall under the bus as the problem in the Oiler locker room. This year he is a finalist for the Hart. The discussion is about whether players improve after the 250 game mark. So yeah, I think he fits the reference.

He was a legit top end 1st line player at the 250 game mark. Certainly not one of these outliers that finds their game after 250. Thats the relevant part of the discussion.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is no upside to throwing in the towel now, because the return would be marginal anyway.

The upside is another team thinks he'll improve with a change of scenery - a reset - and are willing to give up a decent asset for him (a pick or their own young, underachieving player).

It's not uncommon for young underachieving high-drafted players to get traded around their 4th season for just that reason. In fact, it's probably more common than the team that drafted him hanging onto him into season 6 or 7.

Let's not pretend what's happening with Bennett is unique. It feels like that to Flames fans, because he's our highest pick ever. But what's happening here isn't that unusual. And it won't be at all surprising if he gets moved.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The upside is another team thinks he'll improve with a change of scenery - a reset - and are willing to give up a decent asset for him (a pick or their own young, underachieving player).

It's not uncommon for young underachieving high-drafted players to get traded around their 4th season for just that reason. In fact, it's probably more common than the team that drafted him hanging onto him into season 6 or 7.

Let's not pretend what's happening with Bennett is unique. It feels like that to Flames fans, because he's our highest pick ever. But what's happening here isn't that unusual. And it won't be at all surprising if he gets moved.

So, it’s crazy for us to think he will improve. But it’s reasonable to assume General Managers of teams in the National Hockey League will spend an asset on that same dream?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

So, it’s crazy for us to think he will improve. But it’s reasonable to assume General Managers of teams in the National Hockey League will spend an asset on that same dream?

Did you just start following the NHL this year? Or are you one of those fans who only follows the Flames?

Change of scenery trades happen all the time. The Flames may believe Bennett probably won't improve with the Flames, while another team may think he can improve with a reset. If that's the case, a trade will happen. There are many, many precedents.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Did you just start following the NHL this year? Or are you one of those fans who only follows the Flames?

Change of scenery trades happen all the time. The Flames may believe Bennett probably won't improve with the Flames, while another team may think he can improve with a reset. If that's the case, a trade will happen.

Wouldn’t the Flames like to see Bennett with a new coach before selling him for magic beans?

Peters is a change of scenery from Gulutzan

[DFO]

Curtis Lazar

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The upside is another team thinks he'll improve with a change of scenery - a reset - and are willing to give up a decent asset for him (a pick or their own young, underachieving player).

It's not uncommon for young underachieving high-drafted players to get traded around their 4th season for just that reason. In fact, it's probably more common than the team that drafted him hanging onto him into season 6 or 7.

Let's not pretend what's happening with Bennett is unique. It feels like that to Flames fans, because he's our highest pick ever. But what's happening here isn't that unusual. And it won't be at all surprising if he gets moved.

No one is pretending it's unique. You are creating a narrative to justify a position.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The upside is another team thinks he'll improve with a change of scenery - a reset - and are willing to give up a decent asset for him (a pick or their own young, underachieving player).

It's not uncommon for young underachieving high-drafted players to get traded around their 4th season for just that reason. In fact, it's probably more common than the team that drafted him hanging onto him into season 6 or 7.

Let's not pretend what's happening with Bennett is unique. It feels like that to Flames fans, because he's our highest pick ever. But what's happening here isn't that unusual. And it won't be at all surprising if he gets moved.

What was your take on Hall when he was with the oilers? Pretty sure a lot of people felt he was a bust. Just goes to show that not everyone knows what they are talking about. Bennett is only 21, lets give him some time with a new coach. There are situations in life I would rather see for myself and make my own observations; Too many times I have seen the person who was preaching the same stuff over, and over actually turned out to be wrong. We saw this during the Vegas expansion, quite a number of posters acted as if they were speaking from a position of knowledge but were completely wrong about the situation. It is great to have a topic that welcomes various viewpoints and while you have some strong views regarding Bennett lets support and encourage others to have varying viewpoints because it is the right thing to do.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

What was your take on Hall when he was with the oilers? Pretty sure a lot of people felt he was a bust. Just goes to show that not everyone knows what they are talking about. Bennett is only 21.

Hmm, I have somehow moved between universes.

In my universe, Hall was 6th in scoring when he was 21 years old. 80 points in 75 games (Getzlaf finished in second with 87 points).

This was following his top 10 finish as a 20 year old with 50 points in 45 games during the lockout 48 game season.

He was anything but a bust in the dimension I come from.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Hmm, I have somehow moved between universes.

In my universe, Hall was 6th in scoring when he was 21 years old. 80 points in 75 games (Getzlaf finished in second with 87 points).

This was following his top 10 finish as a 20 year old with 50 points in 45 games during the lockout 48 game season.

He was anything but a bust in the dimension I come from.

Exactly Hall is a good player, and dispite having some very average years he is not a bust. In recent interviews Hall attributes his improvement in NJ due to coaching. Sam Bennett is only 21.

[edslunch]

This debate is getting nowhere. Can we all at least agree that the coming season is critical for him, dare I say make or break relative to him becoming more than a disappointing third liner?

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by edslunch

This debate is getting nowhere. Can we all at least agree that the coming season is critical for him, dare I say make or break relative to him becoming more than a disappointing third liner?

No, because there will inevitably be someone to say last year was the make or break year and now he's broken.

(For the record I don't think that)

[belsarius]

The first two "exceptions" that I think of are St Louis and Iginla. Both had a first 200-250 games that were no where indicative of their career numbers. They both went from mid 40 point players around 250 games played and ended their careers as 70 point players.

It was their dedication in the off season after this mark that really made them improve. Iginla focused on his skating and started to come into seasons as a beast that couldn't be knocked over and had some speed to him. St Louis' tree trunk legs are the stuff of legends.

Now I'm not trying to compare Bennett's stats to these guys or anything, more that they didn't really get into their elite game until they got a little older. Iginla was 22-23 when he really started to come on and St Louis was 26-27. They also had the maturity to know they needed to improve and did the work to make it happen.

I don't think we should limit Bennett by statistics, but hope that management has the awareness of his character to know if he can put that work in that players like Iginla and St Louis did to improve his game. They are proof you can make a jump after the 250 game mark, but it takes a special kind of player and competitive mindset.

I feel that Bennett may have the same problem as a lot of kids who breeze through high school, they lived on natural talent but found that wasn't enough in University. I think his eyes might be a bit more open now and with a new coach and proper motivation should be able to make the changes to succeed. I just don't think pointing at an imaginary statistical line can judge the player he is still capable of.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by edslunch

This debate is getting nowhere. Can we all at least agree that the coming season is critical for him, dare I say make or break relative to him becoming more than a disappointing third liner?

I would say the make or break point has already passed. At this point you just hope his game rounds out enough that he's a + third line asset for the team for a couple seasons. If he somehow found a scoring niche it would be gravy but I haven't seen anything from Bennett in so long to even give that notion weight.

[GioforPM]

No one here thought Hall was a bust - we thought he had huge Oilerish holes in his game though. And that he was unduly lauded by Oiler fans "best LW in the game".

As for Bennett, this year is a big knee, but I'd not say it's critical. If he's starts to improve he might be at the beginning of a general movement towards being a really good player, in a slower progression than we expected, but progression nonetheless. I think too many people are expecting that some event or change (eg new linemates, change of coach) to be like flicking a switch for Bennett and suddenly he will be great (or if not, he's a bust). I don't think it will work that way. His progression might well be more like Backlund's- over time he developed into a really good player.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by belsarius

The first two "exceptions" that I think of are St Louis and Iginla. Both had a first 200-250 games that were no where indicative of their career numbers. They both went from mid 40 point players around 250 games played and ended their careers as 70 point players.

Iginla's first season he got 50 points. By his third he scored 28 goals, good enough to be a top 30 goal scorer in the league at the time. And his fourth season (pro-rated) saw him score 67 points. He had a very common sophomore slump, but other than that had continuously improved his game and it's hard to draw any type of comparison between a 21 year old who scored 28 goals (on a team who's top player scored 30), and a 21 year old who scored 26 points.

There's no doubt that St. Louis was a late bloomer, so we got to give you that one, but even he entered the 2003 season with exactly 200 games under his belt. He scored 70 points in the following 82 games.

[Machiavelli]

Now I miss Iggy again. They wasted so many of his great seasons.

It's fine, I'm fine

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Iginla's first season he got 50 points. By his third he scored 28 goals, good enough to be a top 30 goal scorer in the league at the time. And his fourth season (pro-rated) saw him score 67 points. He had a very common sophomore slump, but other than that had continuously improved his game and it's hard to draw any type of comparison between a 21 year old who scored 28 goals (on a team who's top player scored 30), and a 21 year old who scored 26 points.

There's no doubt that St. Louis was a late bloomer, so we got to give you that one, but even he entered the 2003 season with exactly 200 games under his belt. He scored 70 points in the following 82 games.

I'm not trying to draw statistical comparisons, there are so many other variables there. But using the 250 game rule you expect you are getting a 25/25 guy out of Iginla. He ended up being so much more. My point is that it took a lot of character to do the work required to improve and that he was a player that wasn't restricted by the 250 game benchmark.

Does Bennett have it in him to do that? Can he get the ice-time and line mates to do that? Is he willing to spend his entire offseason working to be better? I don't know, but these are factors that management needs to look at for his future a lot more than a statistical 250 game imaginary line.