Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Hey now, my chiropractor’s palm reader’s pastor’s naturopath says I have a strong, healthy immune system. Masks are for nurses.

But your phrenologist says you have the brain pan of a stagecoach tilter!

[you&me]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think it’s probably cheaper to educate more with punitive consequences if they leave within first x years. We currently have more demand for education in medical fields than we do spaces. So we have qualified people being turned away or going elsewhere to get medical educstion at the same time we complain we can’t hire people. Expand education spots.

I didn't realize there was a capacity issue at the education stage. While that would be something to address, it misses my point though.

I want Alberta to be a place that sucks up health care talent... No, not in a predatory manner. And definitely not because we're willing to pay US-level compensation... But there's no reason we shouldn't be the most attractive province for medical talent in Canada.

If the anecdotes shared in this thread are any indication, the outright hostility of the UCP towards the AHS is leading to massive retention issues and and surely giving second thoughts to those just entering their fields, whether educated here, or elsewhere.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by you&me

I didn't realize there was a capacity issue at the education stage. While that would be something to address, it misses my point though.

I want Alberta to be a place that sucks up health care talent... No, not in a predatory manner. And definitely not because we're willing to pay US-level compensation... But there's no reason we shouldn't be the most attractive province for medical talent in Canada.

If the anecdotes shared in this thread are any indication, the outright hostility of the UCP towards the AHS is leading to massive retention issues and and surely giving second thoughts to those just entering their fields, whether educated here, or elsewhere.

Probably better to look at data than rely on anecdotes on social media. I think you’ll find people in every province are expressing anger online at their government over access to health care.

This recent (May 2023) study looks at access to family physicians, which seems a decent proxy for health care resources.

Family physician shortages are the highest in the territories (>55%), Quebec (21.5%) and British Columbia (17.7%). Among the provinces, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British Columbia have the fewest family physicians per 100 000 persons in the population.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...e%20population.

Family physicians per 100k population.

Alberta 127
Quebec 125
B.C. 120
Sask 117
Manitoba 108
Ontario 99

Medical students per 100k population

Quebec 11
Sask 8
Manitoba 8
Alberta 7
Ontario 7
B.C. 5

[Ozy_Flame]

Family physicians per 100k and family physicians including registered but not practicing in Alberta per 100k are two different metrics. There are many physicians who retain their Alberta license but practice in other provinces.

The government always uses the latter, and doesn't give the whole story of physician numbers.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Probably better to look at data than rely on anecdotes on social media. I think you’ll find people in every province are expressing anger online at their government over access to health care.

This recent (May 2023) study looks at access to family physicians, which seems a decent proxy for health care resources.



Family physicians per 100k population.

Alberta 127
Quebec 125
B.C. 120
Sask 117
Manitoba 108
Ontario 99

Medical students per 100k population

Quebec 11
Sask 8
Manitoba 8
Alberta 7
Ontario 7
B.C. 5

This doesn't even really tell the whole story though. We are quite a bit older in BC because a lot of people retire here, so simple population statistics don't even tell the whole story. Also, the rural/urban divide is worse here as most graduating physicians don't leave the lower mainland.

Alberta is relatively young and has more physicians than the rest of the country. It's an enviable place to be. It also has the highest scope of practice for pharmacists to help fill the gap

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

This doesn't even really tell the whole story though. We are quite a bit older in BC because a lot of people retire here, so simple population statistics don't even tell the whole story. Also, the rural/urban divide is worse here as most graduating physicians don't leave the lower mainland.

Alberta is relatively young and has more physicians than the rest of the country. It's an enviable place to be. It also has the highest scope of practice for pharmacists to help fill the gap

I’m sure it doesn’t tell the whole story. But it calls into question the assertion that Alberta is seeing a mass-exodus of health care professionals, and students are having second thoughts about entering the field here.

[bizaro86]

I think something like the following would make sense.

1) raise med school tuition by 100k/year

2) give everyone who enters an interest fee loan to cover it.

3) have the loan be repaid at no cost to the borrower over a certain number of year (like 5-7) of practicing in Alberta

4) use any funds repaid by people who leave to add more med school spots

[CliffFletcher]

We could also look at reducing the number of years of study required to become a doctor. Students in Europe do six years of post-secondary to become a doctor, versus the four years undergraduate degree + four years medical school model in North America. I have a hard time believing doctors in Switzlerland, the Netherlands, and Denmark are less qualified to practice medicine than North American doctors.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We could also look at reducing the number of years of study required to become a doctor. Students in Europe do six years of post-secondary to become a doctor, versus the four years undergraduate degree + four years medical school model in North America. I have a hard time believing doctors in Switzlerland, the Netherlands, and Denmark are less qualified to practice medicine than North American doctors.

I have a friend from high school who became a doctor here in 6 years - he was admitted to med school after 2 years of undergrad before completing his degree. It isn't common but can be done.

And really, if you did that for everyone it wouldn't open up more spots - there were lots of spots in the year 3/4 BSc classes he didn't take, the limiting factor is med school spots. If you open up more of those people will apply for them.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I have a friend from high school who became a doctor here in 6 years - he was admitted to med school after 2 years of undergrad before completing his degree. It isn't common but can be done.

And really, if you did that for everyone it wouldn't open up more spots - there were lots of spots in the year 3/4 BSc classes he didn't take, the limiting factor is med school spots. If you open up more of those people will apply for them.

Reducing the amount of time it takes to complete a degree will get graduates into the profession faster and increase the number of years they practice. Which should increase capacity. It will also reduce their debt load.

[TheIronMaiden]

I think our attitude about healthcare is so deeply shaped by the fruitful decades of the 80s, 90s and 2000s.

From a historical perspective access to healthcare and health outcomes are still near the best they've ever been. Yet, things were so good in the 2000s we took them for normal, when in actuality, they were an anomaly.

Same goes for economics and housing. Things were never going to stay as good as they were then. Not to say we should abandon all hope and not look for improvements. But in the history of the province, let alone the history of western medicine things are pretty damn good.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think it’s probably cheaper to educate more with punitive consequences if they leave within first x years. We currently have more demand for education in medical fields than we do spaces. So we have qualified people being turned away or going elsewhere to get medical educstion at the same time we complain we can’t hire people. Expand education spots.

1) Good luck actually enforcing and going after people for the punitive consequences (I assume that's $$)
2) Other jurisdictions/employers would just say "here's a signing bonus for whatever your fee is"

[looooob]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We could also look at reducing the number of years of study required to become a doctor. Students in Europe do six years of post-secondary to become a doctor, versus the four years undergraduate degree + four years medical school model in North America. I have a hard time believing doctors in Switzlerland, the Netherlands, and Denmark are less qualified to practice medicine than North American doctors.

med school in Calgary is 3 years



I agree the undergrad degree qualification doesn't necessarily impact med school /doctor readiness- but most med schools in Canada don't actually require an undergrad degree its just more or less the norm (due in part to the level of competition to get in to be fair)


a few points about increasing med school enrollment. First I will long maintain for the most part this is not being held back directly by selfish docs trying to choke out competitors. most docs (in most specialties- there are exceptions) are at the stage that they would welcome the help, not fear competition financial or otherwise


we do have to keep in mind though that training med students (at all stages- classroom, wards, clinics) is not only expensive but labour intensive and you are often asking the same docs who are flat out right now anyways to take that on- some don't want to, most are willing but they do have capacity issues of their own

[looooob]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’m sure it doesn’t tell the whole story. But it calls into question the assertion that Alberta is seeing a mass-exodus of health care professionals, and students are having second thoughts about entering the field here.

it's a moving target for sure. little doubt recent data showed that family medicine in Alberta as a training destination took a hit (through CARMS) that hasn't been seen in a while or at least recently


a problem of course (and absolutely not unique to Alberta) is the number of family MDs and the number of family MDs doing what we think of as conventional (full time) family practice is really changing (especially amongst younger grads) so the age of the workforce is an important consideration

[Ozy_Flame]

Alberta med school is already shortened - 3 years.

And you can't really reduce it further because you need class time, and you rotate through clerkships during those years.

So really, they're getting on-the-job training during med school - they just don't get paid for it.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Torture

1) Good luck actually enforcing and going after people for the punitive consequences (I assume that's $$)
2) Other jurisdictions/employers would just say "here's a signing bonus for whatever your fee is"

1. Of all loans, student loans are one of the most enforceable. For example, they aren't generally included in bankruptcy proceedings, and require a separate bankruptcy and filing, or the filer must have been out of school for longer than seven years.
2. Not a problem, those punitive funds (essentially repayment of the student loan) can get used to continue to fund more med school spots and programs.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Reducing the amount of time it takes to complete a degree will get graduates into the profession faster and increase the number of years they practice. Which should increase capacity. It will also reduce their debt load.

On an individual basis that's true (ie, someone maybe becomes a Dr by 23 instead of 26 or whatever) but on a societal level making the program shorter doesn't open up any more seats.

If a 100 seat med school started taking all people with 2 years of undergrad instead of 4 they will still graduate 100 new doctors per year. They'll be a bit younger (and so maybe there's a benefit in 35 years when they practice a bit longer) but this year you still get the 100 doctors you've paid for.

[Fuzz]

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...1AABD6B5A59602


This is a hilarious read, until you remember these people are our rulers.

"Does not play well with others" must have been a common comment on their report cards growing up.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...1AABD6B5A59602


This is a hilarious read, until you remember these people are our rulers.

"Does not play well with others" must have been a common comment on their report cards growing up.

frack that's a load of propaganda intended to rile up the mouth breathing right wing base.

[ZedMan]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...1AABD6B5A59602


This is a hilarious read, until you remember these people are our rulers.

"Does not play well with others" must have been a common comment on their report cards growing up.

Wow, 7 whole paragraphs. Only cost the AB taxpayer a little north of $250k in flights each!