God I hated Janeway, she was just terrible. When the crews merged, the Marquis should have mutinied, tossed her carcass into a torpedo tube and fired her into the sun.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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Frankly Roddenberry's vision would have never worked in a TV show except to make humanity uniformly unlikable. The preachy arrogant neighbour who stuck their nose where it didn't belong, and were fairly eager to show off their weapons and advanced tech when diplomacy failed.
What I liked about DS9 is it answered the question of what man would be like as you got further away from the center of your civilization. What man would be like when confronted by the un winnable and how far would we go in selling out our ideals to survive. Even in TNG to gain a short term victory over the Borg they were so willing to corrupt a civilization and nearly paid the price later.
With DS9 it showed that when not under the prying eyes of the center, mankind was just as racist, xenophobic, brutal, win at any costs and greedy as they'd always been, and that's why I loved that series.
I get that Roddenberry's ideals don't make for great drama. And that previous series were improved by breaking with them. However, they were still basically optimistic shows. There's a world of difference between the nuanced shades of grey of DS9 and the angst-ridden grimdark of Discovery. The crews were functional communities, unlike the dysfunctional high school cafeteria we've seen so far on Discovery.
What would a mirror universe even look like in Discovery - an optimistic and cooperative crew on a mission of enlightened exploration?
Star Trek doesn't have to be utopian. But it doesn't have to be misery porn either. There are dozens of other TV shows on right now for people who want to indulge in angst, cynicism, and dark violence. And most of them are better written.
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Last edited by CliffFletcher; 10-04-2017 at 09:44 AM.
I get that Rodenberry's ideals don't make for great drama. And that previous series were improved by breaking with them. However, they were still basically optimistic shows. There's a world of difference between the nuanced shades of grey of DS9 and the angst-ridden grimdark of Discovery. The crews were functional communities, unlike the dysfunctional high school cafeteria we've seen so far on Discovery.
What would a mirror universe even look like in Discovery - an optimistic and cooperative crew on a mission of enlightened exploration?
Star Trek doesn't have to be utopian. But it doesn't have to be misery porn either. There are dozens of other TV shows on right now for people who want to indulge in angst, cynicism, and dark violence. And most of them are better written.
At the heart of DS9 what worked about it, was against overwhelming odds, the central core or crew never turned on each other. They were a definite shade of Gray and were willing to do awful things to survive, but you got a sense that it was still humanities battle.
In Discovery you just don't get that feel.
Interesting point about the mirror universe. There's been some debate that this show is taking place in the mirror universe and they are going to retcon the origins of the universe and this war with the Klingons will cause the events that replace the United Federation of Planets with the Empire, and if that's the case then Michael's actions will in the end become more heroic and the future basis for how officers on an Imperial Ship are supposed to act. Its an interesting theory, I doubt its true, but it would be a neat storyline all of a sudden.
I agree with your last point, and DS9 worked because you would have a string of three episodes that were absolutely miserable and negative, and then they'd throw in a neat little episode like Take me out to the Ball Game, or the Trials and Tribblations episode that reminded you that at the core humanity was still ok, and not the bastard pirates of the space ways.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Its just hard to get into this show, I don't know whether they're having trouble understanding their own characters or what.
Spoiler!
Now the Klingon's are cannibals having feasts where they eat their conquered foes.
Staments has some high minded ideals unless it serves his purpose, then he's willing to basically abuse a life form to perfect his drive.
Saru is really unlikable now, beyond the fact that they're really overplaying the whole I'm a prey animal scared of everything.
The room mate Tilly first of all, she's just not a good actress, but second of all, she's annoying to be annoying but then they throw in these moments of clarity for her that just make her confusing.
I'm not getting the battle plan, when they finally jumped in. It would have been nice to see it jump in and just crush everything instead of waiting and taking a bunch of shots and then jumping out while leaving I guess a bunch of bombs behind.
Even the Captain is completely unlikeable, he's more a military officer that glories in war, maybe he's a klingon spy.
Originally the theory was that we were in the mirror universe, but that was basically laid to rest tonight with the showing of the Star Fleet logo over and over, we know that they were an empire back in the archer days and in the future.
The Klingons are a bust for me, the masks are too unweildly, the torch bearing is a complete idiot. There's just nothing "Awesome" about it. Their language sounds like the Native American's in Dances with Wolves.
On a plus side the effects are decent and look good.
They killed off Commander Landry and I was ok with it, because she was a complete moron with a plan that you could see would get her killed 10 minutes before it happened.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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We saw the one up manship of the design of the Discovery.
In Voyager they had the nacelle's move to a new position to go to warp.
On Discovery the Saucer basically spins. My Girlfriend was watching this with me and wondered if that was where the restaurant section was.
It just looked eye rolling dumb.
The supposed chosen one torch carrier of the Klingon people gets completely duped and through the whole episode I was thinking, man this guy whines a lot.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I liked yesterday’s episode. The characters are growing on me. The Klingon story line is holding my interest. The spore drive thingy isn’t all that interesting but what it enables the ship to do is impressive. The Discovery is going to be a handful in battle with that kind of tech at their disposal.
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Its just hard to get into this show, I don't know whether they're having trouble understanding their own characters or what.
Spoiler!
Now the Klingon's are cannibals having feasts where they eat their conquered foes.
Staments has some high minded ideals unless it serves his purpose, then he's willing to basically abuse a life form to perfect his drive.
Saru is really unlikable now, beyond the fact that they're really overplaying the whole I'm a prey animal scared of everything.
The room mate Tilly first of all, she's just not a good actress, but second of all, she's annoying to be annoying but then they throw in these moments of clarity for her that just make her confusing.
I'm not getting the battle plan, when they finally jumped in. It would have been nice to see it jump in and just crush everything instead of waiting and taking a bunch of shots and then jumping out while leaving I guess a bunch of bombs behind.
Even the Captain is completely unlikeable, he's more a military officer that glories in war, maybe he's a klingon spy.
Originally the theory was that we were in the mirror universe, but that was basically laid to rest tonight with the showing of the Star Fleet logo over and over, we know that they were an empire back in the archer days and in the future.
The Klingons are a bust for me, the masks are too unweildly, the torch bearing is a complete idiot. There's just nothing "Awesome" about it. Their language sounds like the Native American's in Dances with Wolves.
On a plus side the effects are decent and look good.
They killed off Commander Landry and I was ok with it, because she was a complete moron with a plan that you could see would get her killed 10 minutes before it happened.
Completely agree with all of what you said. It already feels like they've run out of material or something... or just that their main plot idea wasn't that strong to begin with.
The Klingon scenes are almost unwatchable to me. Stand around and talk to each other in mediocre accents and repeating the same dribble over and over . I just end up not caring what they're saying enough to even keep reading the subtitles.
There is a rumor/theory that cadet Tilly is ASD, hence some of the oddness to her character.
I am already tired of the klingon story line, the reality is that humanity is the scariest species in the Trek verse. Everyone else is just lucky we're buddies(balls deep) with the Vulcans and want to be nice.
And whats up with the chronology? If this is before Kirk we already know the out come of the two current story lines.
I'm liking the show, but having a hard time maintaining the like.
I'm back and forth on the Captain. Bit of a dick move playing distress calls for the entire crew to hear and then the comment he made to the guy developing the spore drive after the medic says "you have blood on your face" and the captain adds "and on your hands".
I hated Sonequa in TWD, not doing any better in Star Trek. Just don't like her.
LOVED the part where Discovery appears over the mining colony and immediately destroys a few ships. HATED it that the plan was to jump back out leaving bombs in their wake. Why didn't that do a number on the colony directly below the ship that we just saw lose the last of their shields?
There is a rumor/theory that cadet Tilly is ASD, hence some of the oddness to her character.
I am already tired of the klingon story line, the reality is that humanity is the scariest species in the Trek verse. Everyone else is just lucky we're buddies(balls deep) with the Vulcans and want to be nice.
And whats up with the chronology? If this is before Kirk we already know the out come of the two current story lines.
I guess what's weird and jarring about the Klingons is if you now look at the whole time line and that this according to the creators takes place in the Prime Time Line
In Enterprise - They are the bumpy headed all in their glory with long hair and snaggle toothed look that we see in TNG and DS9 and in the Movies.
Then they experiment with the augment genes and gain a human appearance.
Originally they explained these Klingon as an off shoot, however and this is 10 years before TOS, all of the Klingon's look completely different and their language is completely different. They can't be an off shoot because the holograms of the high command and even the new Klingons show up with the nuklingon look.
10 years later they're back to human looking, we know this because there are multiple episodes with the klingons in them with their human looks.
Then in TMP they're back to bumpy, the explanation is that the Klingon gene over came the augment DNA. Then in TSFS Christopher Lloyd and his crew have taken on TNG klingon and the language from TMP is refined.
Then in TNG and DS9 we get real refinements in the language and its fast and harsh and sounds like a combination of Chinese and Russian.
I get that they wanted to create a whole new Klingon, and it would have worked if this off shoot was different, and the Klingon council showed up looking like normal Klingon, then you could really argue that this story line would work better because normal Klingon's would absolutely hate the nuklingons.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I wasn't a big fan of the pilot and if I do watch, it'll be when the season is over so I can binge.
But the leadup to this series got me jonesing for some ST so I decided to finally start DS9.
Couple thoughts on it so far (almost done S2).
- The first season is not good, just like TNG. They relied way too much on Quark to constantly derive conflict and the plot.
- STOP WITH THE JAKE EPISODES!!! HE SUCKS!!! He's so boring and I just don't care about him at all. Kids don't belong on star trek. They suck at acting. None of their conflict is even remotely interesting. Wesley Crusher only got interesting when he got older and almost brought down starfleet with ashley judd.
- They seem to have found some rhythm in S2. We are seeing more interesting storylines other than the wacky adventures of Quark every week.
- They've done a good job setting up and hinting at the dominion so far. The wormhole and the bajoran/cardassian war is a great premise with tons story potential.
- The episodes seem to have very quick, unresolved endings a lot. It is kind of annoying. To be clear, I don't mean morally ambiguous endings. I mean the climax happens with like 30 seconds left and then the episode just ends with no explanation as to what happened and then it is never mentioned again. Seems like most episodes were written to be about 60mins long and when edited down to TV time they decided to always keep the build up and conflict and then just edit out the resolution.
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I wasn't a big fan of the pilot and if I do watch, it'll be when the season is over so I can binge.
But the leadup to this series got me jonesing for some ST so I decided to finally start DS9.
Couple thoughts on it so far (almost done S2).
- The first season is not good, just like TNG. They relied way too much on Quark to constantly derive conflict and the plot.
- STOP WITH THE JAKE EPISODES!!! HE SUCKS!!! He's so boring and I just don't care about him at all. Kids don't belong on star trek. They suck at acting. None of their conflict is even remotely interesting. Wesley Crusher only got interesting when he got older and almost brought down starfleet with ashley judd.
- They seem to have found some rhythm in S2. We are seeing more interesting storylines other than the wacky adventures of Quark every week.
- They've done a good job setting up and hinting at the dominion so far. The wormhole and the bajoran/cardassian war is a great premise with tons story potential.
- The episodes seem to have very quick, unresolved endings a lot. It is kind of annoying. To be clear, I don't mean morally ambiguous endings. I mean the climax happens with like 30 seconds left and then the episode just ends with no explanation as to what happened and then it is never mentioned again. Seems like most episodes were written to be about 60mins long and when edited down to TV time they decided to always keep the build up and conflict and then just edit out the resolution.
Ds9 did take a couple of years to really get into full sprint, the first season wasn't great but you could see a lot of potential in the permise as a whole.
I'd argue that the first really strong episode in season one was the one where they crash on a planet where there's a perpetual war but the people fighting it keep getting bought back to life.
Progress the one where Kira try's to talk a old farmer off of his land was actually a really good character episode.
The Circle story line that started season two was really well done as well.
Necessary evil was a neat look at the Occupation of Ds9.
The Maquis two parter though was when the series really started to find its legs. And the first mirror episode cross over was great as well.
After that the next few seasons were really strong.
But the beginning premise of the series really kept me watching it, because you felt like it was developing and going somewhere.
And yeah Jake was annoying except for old man Jake.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Season 1 of DS9 is mostly bad/forgettable outside of 'Duet', which is one of the best episodes of Star Trek. The guy that plays Marritza is maybe the best guest performance on the series.
Last edited by OutOfTheCube; 10-10-2017 at 03:49 PM.
