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View Poll Results: What will happen to Brad Treliving after the end of the season?
He should and will be fired 119 19.13%
He should be fired, but will continue as the Flames GM 208 33.44%
He should not and will not be fired 128 20.58%
He should not but will be fired 13 2.09%
Unsure if he should be, but he will be fired 27 4.34%
Unsure if he should be, but he will not be fired 127 20.42%
Voters: 622. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-12-2021, 04:22 PM   #3261
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This #1C stuff is overplayed.

If that’s the difference, why are the Vegas Golden Knights not down with the Flames in the standings?

They are the top team in the entire league
Having the best 2-way winger in the game (Stone) helps a lot. VGK is an outlier in many respects; deploying Theodore + Pietrangelo and having Lehner/MAF start every game is pretty unique.

Pronger+Niedermayer+Giguere. Andy McDonald was roughly PPG for the two seasons coming out of the lockout. He and 21 yo sophomore Getzlaf* are probably among the weakest 1-2 punches to lift a cup.

*The first half of that season Getz was on a 30G 52P pace playing 13 mins a night. The second half of the season was 20G 64P pace playing 17:11. And then he lead the team in scoring in the playoffs. Clearly he was rounding into the dominant player he became by the next season, but he was certainly pre-apex on that cup run.


Toews-#2 (Sharp/Bolland/etc.) might be the other exception (in the sense that Sharp wasn't a pure C). Made possible by Hossa, Kane, Keith, and nearly unprecedented depth...)

The next 'weakest' 1-2 punches:
Backstrom-Kuznetsov
ROR-Schenn


#1C (or really two of them) really isn't overplayed. Who is the worst #1 to win a cup in the cap era?

Staal
Getz/MacD
Datsyuk
Crosby
Toews
Bergeron/Krejci
Kopitar
Toews
Kopitar
Toews
Crosby
Crosby
Backstrom
ROR
Point

It's not overplayed.

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Old 05-12-2021, 04:45 PM   #3262
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^^^This list underscores that if you don’t have two centres who would be at least top-2 centres on their respective national teams, you probably need to keep looking.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:03 PM   #3263
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Yeah but who considered O’Rielly/Schenn elite depth until they actually won a cup?

If Vancouver wins game 7 over Boston now it’s Sedin/Kesler, but they’re not mentioned.

If Bergeron/Krejci never win that one year, are they considered great regular season but not elite enough?

Ovechkin/Backstrom and lack of success before they finally got their cup.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:18 PM   #3264
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If Tre does go I think there also needs to maybe a change in the scouting staff. Todd Button has been with the team as Director of Scouting for 20 years.

The GM and AGM's are presented the talent by the scouting staff and make their decisions based on the scouting staffs reviews.

In the past we have not been that great at drafting great talent. We have had the odd diamond in the rough (i.e Johnny,4th round) but overall our development system has not been overwhelming.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:32 PM   #3265
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If Tre does go I think there also needs to maybe a change in the scouting staff. Todd Button has been with the team as Director of Scouting for 20 years.

The GM and AGM's are presented the talent by the scouting staff and make their decisions based on the scouting staffs reviews.

In the past we have not been that great at drafting great talent. We have had the odd diamond in the rough (i.e Johnny,4th round) but overall our development system has not been overwhelming.
The Amateur Scouting department should be the safest department in the organization.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:42 PM   #3266
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If Tre does go I think there also needs to maybe a change in the scouting staff. Todd Button has been with the team as Director of Scouting for 20 years.

The GM and AGM's are presented the talent by the scouting staff and make their decisions based on the scouting staffs reviews.

In the past we have not been that great at drafting great talent. We have had the odd diamond in the rough (i.e Johnny,4th round) but overall our development system has not been overwhelming.
Change in the development system?
Maybe. The Flames haven't developed a goalie in forever.
They've only full developed two defensemen since 2008 (Brodie and Andersson, maybe Valimaki soon).
The AHL team has only made the playoffs once in the past decade or so. Many promising players are never given a chance. Young players are rarely inserted into the lineup to develop. Rather, cap is wasted on no-potential vets.

But I think the scouting has been pretty good.
Some picks like the Jake Boltmann pick were outright stupid. But they're pretty good at drafting players with decent ceilings in the later rounds. The Flames have always been good at drafting small and skilled players.
They also haven't had a ton of good picks lately.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:42 PM   #3267
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I disagree with the notion that hiring Gulutzan was a huge an obvious mistake from the beginning.


In hindsight, it was horrible. Because we are Flames' fans here, and remember other inexperienced coaches like Hay and Gilbert, we have a bit of a longer memory. Not long enough to remember Bob Johnson though.


I say this in not liking the hire at the onset.


However, by the end of the first year, I thought it was obvious that he was not really working, even if the Flames made the playoffs. Sure, I understand not wanting to fire a coach after his first year, and making the playoffs.


The Peters hire was very perplexing to me. There were better 'brand name coaches' available at that time for sure. I also hated it so much because of the advanced metrics on Carolina really mirrored what was happening in Calgary - perimeter play, low SH%, and IIRC, lower volume of high danger chances. It really mirrored Gulutzan's metrics.


Well, I was pleasantly surprised at how this team responded under Gulutzan. I would bet most of us were. Most of us hated the hire. I was pleasantly surprised. However, I made a comment during the playoffs against Colorado that he was being out-coached by Bednar (who is a rookie coach himself). I didn't see any adjustments. I wasn't the only one, but I was one of many that were shouted-down at the time that it was Johnny being small and easily shut-down. My argument then is the same as it is now - that may be true, but I still don't see any adjustments that Peters is making on zone entries, on getting Johnny away from match-ups, or even trying what Bednar was doing against Johnny with respect to MacKinnon - triple team him and take his ice away before he starts moving. I also saw a rattled team that Peters wasn't able to settle down. I wanted him fired, but how do you go about firing a guy who coached your team to a 1st in the west, 2nd in the NHL place?


Ward was the most obvious choice. Could have found someone right away to take over the Flames after the Peters fiasco, but got Ward to take over. Then he made it permanent.



That's 3 straight relatively inexperienced coaches with limited years in the NHL as a head coach, no coach that has been a head coach in the NHL on more than one team, no prior success as an NHL head coach.


THREE in a row. Three damn coaches that were unproven in the NHL, but it was really easy for him to fire the one with a Stanley Cup ring.


To me, that's where this team tanked. Can Sutter bring it back? I don't know. I definitely see a heartbeat, but I am not sure I see a team that can be salvaged. I am just a moron online anyway, so what do I know.


I just think you fire Treliving this off-season. Why do you keep him around past this season? What are the arguments. Let me think of some.


1) Continuity - building a team takes more than one season, and if you change the GM, sometimes the direction of the team ends up changing, and you never finish getting to where you are trying to build. Ok, that's a legitimate argument that I do think happens in the NHL (and other sports as well), and it just makes crappy franchises stay crappy because they never build. Point taken. However, is this direction that Treliving is taking the Flames an upswing, or is it a downswing? I argue that I don't like the direction this team is going. They lost solid players in Brodie and Bennett. This team seems to have had been mismanaged from an asset point of view (draft picks) and from a cap perspective (buyouts + bad contracts with the Neal/Lucic thing, and the Tkachuk contract that is about to kill the Flames), and from a coaching perspective (3 straight stupid coaches, but now with Sutter), and even from 'filling the holes' perspective - Brouwer, Hamonic, Raymond, The goalies until this year, etc - that have been poor fits. Plus, this team is trending in the wrong direction for a couple of seasons now, + part of another. Is this the direction that the Flames should be going in?


2) The next guy might be worse: Yes, the Flames might hire a Riseborough or a Feaster. This scares me too. You know what else scares me? If things continue as they are under Treliving. I would rather do a search and hire someone else, or even promote Conroy. He has been learning to be a GM for years now, hasn't he? When will he be ready? He at least (rightfully) insisted that Bennett needs rope at centre. What else has he been right about that we don't know (honest question - I don't know anything else that he made a call on). If not him, Lombardi is a proven guy. Rutherford is available and proven. Futa is available and highly thought of. There are options. Maybe it turns into a Feaster. However, my argument now is that this team is going the wrong way and it is looking more and more like it is being run by another Feaster anyway (ok, not as bad, but you get the point). Fear of acting in case things get worse isn't logical. If Treliving is right, he is right. If he isn't, replacing him with someone worse shouldn't be a thing that makes you not act.


3) Treliving has made this team better on paper, so therefore it isn't his responsibility that things didn't work out: In my opinion, this is illogical too. Treliving is directly responsible for this team. He is responsible for everything to do with assistant GMs, to scouts, to the AHL development system, to the coaches, to the players and to the most important part of it all - results. The 'better on paper' argument may or may not be valid, but it is just a distraction from what does matter - the results. I liked some of his moves. I disliked some of his moves too. I am not paid to make these moves. On paper, is this a better team than when he first took over? Well, of course it is, shouldn't it? He took on a 2nd year rebuilding team. It better fricken be a better team, but in some ways, it isn't. It is trending the wrong way too, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of hope left.


So what are the reasons for firing him?


1) 3 post-season GAME victories in 6 seasons. Three games? That's it? Heck, in his first year of inheriting a 'crap and unsustainable team', he got 5 wins, including a win against Anaheim. I really don't know how to rationalize this very well. Winning is hard? They met top teams every time? If only they had scored in that 2nd game against Colorado, and been up 2-0? Colorado was a really good team that went on to win (nothing), and the Flames had a competitive series against them? If only Lindholm had held the puck instead of trying to clear, the Flames would have been up 3-1 on Dallas, and won the series, and they would have been the ones facing off against Tampa in the finals! We can always play the "If only/what if" game.


2) It has been 7 years as GM, in year two of a rebuild. Is this a failed rebuild? Nobody is thinking this team is anywhere close to competing. They haven't even been a perennial playoff team. Not enough time to build a championship. He was handcuffed by the cap, or meddlesome owners. Who could possibly foresee the best defencemen on this team leaving a hole in walking away for free, and the 2nd best defencemen not being able to continue being Norris level at age 37? I sure as heck couldn't.


3) Assets - this team spent assets as though they were a contender when they were still rebuilding. They were asset poor as a rebuilding team. Well, obviously that unsustainable season that he kept pointing out that year and the reason for Hartley's dismissal that he kept saying was lucky, still managed to trick him into thinking it was just a big piece or two away from a cup run. Anyone would be tricked, right?


4) Poor coaching hires. 3 inexperienced coaches. I think Treliving could be wrong on one coach hire (and I am not giving him flack for the Hartley dismissal). He replaced what he thought was a coach that couldn't take them any further (his words) with a coach that took them in the wrong direction. Then he doubled-down in hiring another unproven coach. Then he tripled-down and hired the least experienced coach of all. Under Treliving, and starting with Hartley (he did have to extend Hartley after the unexpected 2nd round playoffs and the Jack Adams), but he didn't finish his contract. Gultuzan I thought was hired for 3 years (maybe two, but I think 3) so he didn't finish his contract. Peters didn't finish his contract (though he got a gimmee based on extenuating circumstances) and Ward (embarrassingly enough) got turfed within his first year of contract. Name another coach to have survived a similar situation. Name just one. Wait.. I forgot I am supposed to argue against this. I can't argue against it.


5) Mismanaged cap - being a cap team but not a contender is messed up a bit, especially when it stops you from being able to sign the contracts that need to sign (cough, Tkachuk, cough). Owners have been very accommodating in allowing buyouts, and coaches on the payroll being paid to not coach this team. Cap team that couldn't hold onto Brodie who has been one of the only rocks defensively every playoff series, and who was looking to re-sign here, but told to 'wait', even though he had an offer from Toronto who was pressing him to make a decision. Can't believe he circled back to Calgary at all, but to be told to wait while they sign someone else first? Boy could this team use a puck-moving D to help with this slow transition right now.



I give up. I can't really argue any longer for why Treliving shouldn't be fired. I just can't. I am sure there are some people out there that can, but I can't.


Also, I fully admit that the majority of his moves are moves that I agreed with. That doesn't mean I have to take the stance that he doesn't deserve to get fired. I have neither the qualifications nor am I being paid the salary that he is. I do not have the resources to help me make these decisions either. I can both agree with the majority of his decisions, but still feel like I do today - that Treliving has simply taken this team as far as he could, and it is time for someone else.
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:40 PM   #3268
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Yeah but who considered O’Rielly/Schenn elite depth until they actually won a cup?

If Vancouver wins game 7 over Boston now it’s Sedin/Kesler, but they’re not mentioned.

If Bergeron/Krejci never win that one year, are they considered great regular season but not elite enough?

Ovechkin/Backstrom and lack of success before they finally got their cup.
O’Reilly was a member of the 2016 World Cup team. He’s probably the #4C this Olympics, and only #4 because Canada.

Bergeron and Krecji have been to three finals.

Sedin/Kesler was championship caliber centre depth. There are no guarantees.

Backstrom is 0.97 PPG and Kuznetzov is 0.8 PPG for their careers.

It boggles the mind how much pushback there is here to “get elite centres”.

What’s a better idea than that?

Giving Taylor Hall $70M? Please.
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:48 PM   #3269
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On paper, is this a better team than when he first took over? Well, of course it is, shouldn't it? He took on a 2nd year rebuilding team. It better fricken be a better team, but in some ways, it isn't. It is trending the wrong way too, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of hope left.

Good post. This is the most fundamental point IMO.

Now I fully admit there are things we are not privy to that could show Treliving in a more positive light. But it could just as easily swing the other way (like wanting to buy out Neal).

I'd sooner take a chance on a change than the current approach which seems too directionless.
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Old 05-12-2021, 07:35 PM   #3270
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powderjunkie, that was a good post about #1Cs

Certainly Cup winning teams have certainly had good top Cs.

When Boston won, both Krejci and Bergeron were 60 point excellent 2-way guys. I may argue that it was actually their cup made them recognized as top centres (the type you need to win a championship). Same with ROR, as he was a 60 point career guy until he went to StL and popped.

I don’t think they were viewed as champion caliber until they won

Look at Lindholm. He has had 78, then 63 and 67 point (82 game pace), while playing a good 200 foot game. Could you argue he is not too different from the guys above?

I would probably expand the list to look at contenders, say top 4 teams over the past couple of decades, not just Cup winners. Because that list gets really short when you consider 15 teams, includes 10 unique winners (Once you remove Crosby x2, Toews x2, Kopitar)

I think the Flames may view themselves as having good center depth when Monahan is healthy

I don’t know. I actually don’t mind the Flames C situation or find it nearly as glaring as the RW and D situations
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:19 PM   #3271
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Well, again, I think they wanted to hire Sutter as far back as the Peters dismissal. When that wasn’t on the table, they were willing to bide their time. They got the guy they wanted.

Seems like he has tunnel vision regarding coaches. There’s always one guy he wants.
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:44 PM   #3272
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If Tre does go I think there also needs to maybe a change in the scouting staff. Todd Button has been with the team as Director of Scouting for 20 years.

The GM and AGM's are presented the talent by the scouting staff and make their decisions based on the scouting staffs reviews.

In the past we have not been that great at drafting great talent. We have had the odd diamond in the rough (i.e Johnny,4th round) but overall our development system has not been overwhelming.
Tod Button is the last guy I’d want fired from this organization. This is the same guy who saw something in both Johnny Gaudreau and Nikita Kucherov. He’s the only reason why Gaudreau is even on this team. If it was up to him, I think the Flames have both Kucherov and Gaudreau driving their own lines right now and the Flames would be perennial Stanley Cup contenders. Button = Safe.
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:50 PM   #3273
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^^^This list underscores that if you don’t have two centres who would be at least top-2 centres on their respective national teams, you probably need to keep looking.
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Yeah but who considered O’Rielly/Schenn elite depth until they actually won a cup?

If Vancouver wins game 7 over Boston now it’s Sedin/Kesler, but they’re not mentioned.

If Bergeron/Krejci never win that one year, are they considered great regular season but not elite enough?

Ovechkin/Backstrom and lack of success before they finally got their cup.
ROR is a tough one; different trajectory, but I'd say similar status as Lindholm currently...I wouldn't be shocked if we was a top 2 C on a cup winning team, though more likely in the 2C role. Schenn put up 70 pts the previous year. Probably similar to Monahan as very borderline, but not unconceivable as a #2.

They are probably the 'weakest' 1-2 punch to win. And probably the very best goaltending of any cap era cup winner?

Sedin/Kesler = HOFer and Selke winner/finalist who put up 70+ pts in '10 and '11 seasons.


On Krejci/Bergeron: no. Thornton/Couture were a good enough pair. They almost got there. I'm sure there have been others that have gotten close, or haven't.

McAvi/Raisaitl, Matthews/Tavares, MacKinnon/Kadri, Scheifele/Dubois are all good enough pairs. They still need a hell of a lot to go right.

More not inconceivables (need even more to go right):

Aho/J Staal/Trocheck
Barkov/Bennett/Wennberg - AB is just that good.
Couturier/Hayes/???
Pettersson/Horvat
Kopitar/Byfield/Vilardi, etc.
Lindholm/Monahan/Backlund
Hischier/Hughes - doesn't look close at the moment, but the potential is there.
Zibanejad/Strome*
Toews/D Strome (both Stromes are a stretch, but could reach that 'Schenn' level...)
Eichel/E Staal - obviously the team was lacking pretty much everything else, but that Staal was a 60+ pt C 3/4 yrs in MIN.

There's probably a few more pairs, too (probably requiring even more optimism..


IMO it boils down to:

You can win with 2-3 'very good' C's, but you'll need nearly everything to go right, with a few 'miracles' along the way.

You can win with 2 'great' C's, but you'll still need a ton of things to go right.


The Penguins roster from player 3-23 is probably the worst of all cap era cup winners (which certainly isn't to say it's bad), but they had the very very best 1-2 punch since Gretz/Mess.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:07 PM   #3274
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Yeah but who considered O’Rielly/Schenn elite depth until they actually won a cup?

If Vancouver wins game 7 over Boston now it’s Sedin/Kesler, but they’re not mentioned.

If Bergeron/Krejci never win that one year, are they considered great regular season but not elite enough?

Ovechkin/Backstrom and lack of success before they finally got their cup.
I don’t think a true elite #1 center guarantees you success, but I think it’s the easiest method to build a contender. But ultimately, Stanley Cup winning teams still need good depth and an identity.

I think the only thing that prevented St Louis from winning it all was was a #1 center and a half decent goalie and they got both in 2019. I also put Washington in a similar boat. Great team for years, they just needed that top flight center in Kuznetsov to build an elite 1-2 punch up the middle to match up against Crosby and Malkin. I think it was poetic justice that Kuznetsov also happened to score the series winning OT goal that eliminated the Penguins on route to their Stanley Cup victory.

The Flames are seriously just missing that dominant #1 center right now that can take over playoff games and playoff series. They have decent team, they just need that one big piece themselves. Is this offseason the one that takes the Flames to the next level? I guess we’ll have to see.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:07 PM   #3275
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Tod Button is the last guy I’d want fired from this organization. This is the same guy who saw something in both Johnny Gaudreau and Nikita Kucherov. He’s the only reason why Gaudreau is even on this team. If it was up to him, I think the Flames have both Kucherov and Gaudreau driving their own lines right now and the Flames would be perennial Stanley Cup contenders. Button = Safe.
Lol…the Flames have been at the bottom of the league in term of prospects for most of his 25 yrs as a scout.

The Kucherov thing is all hearsay also. Fact is they chose to pick 3 busts instead
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:09 PM   #3276
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:13 PM   #3277
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I love reading C4L posts - way better than what mostly passes for sports journalism these days. Thanks - like reading really good editorials on the EPL in the Athletic.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:13 PM   #3278
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Lol…the Flames have been at the bottom of the league in term of prospects for most of his 25 yrs as a scout.

The Kucherov thing is all hearsay also. Fact is they chose to pick 3 busts instead
So the lack of draft picks doesn’t count into your equation at all? If I asked you to build a decent house without any wood, do you think you could do it?

2011 was a long time ago and the game was completely different back in the day. Just because the rest of the doofus scouts dropped Kucherov in their rankings doesn’t mean Button should be penalized for it in my opinion. He saw something in Gaudreau, he saw something in Kucherov. I want the guy who can see the talent, that’s the most important thing. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was his idea to draft Andrew Mangiapane and Adam Fox too.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:31 PM   #3279
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I love reading C4L posts - way better than what mostly passes for sports journalism these days. Thanks - like reading really good editorials on the EPL in the Athletic.
Too much reading for a simpleton like me.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:39 PM   #3280
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Yeah but who considered O’Rielly/Schenn elite depth until they actually won a cup?

If Vancouver wins game 7 over Boston now it’s Sedin/Kesler, but they’re not mentioned.

If Bergeron/Krejci never win that one year, are they considered great regular season but not elite enough?

Ovechkin/Backstrom and lack of success before they finally got their cup.
Id say Sedin and Kesler were pretty elite at that time. Sedin was a 90-100pts player and Kesler was one of the best 2-way forwards in the game.

Bergeron is easily one of the best all around centres regardless if he wins a Cup.

Ovechkin/Backstrom are both elite players regardless if they won as well.

St Louis really is the only example in the last 20-30 years of a team winning with arguably no superstars.
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