The Legend of Sam Bennett

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

5v5 for the 8 game stretch Bennett has been on Florida...

CF%: 65.22 (2nd on team)
SF%: 63.48 (4th on team)
GF%: 100.00 (1st on team)
xGF%: 73.25 (1st on team)
SCF%: 69.23 (2nd on team)
HDCF%: 74.29 (1st on team)
HDGF%: 100.00 (1st on team)

He isn't even being "lucky". He's freaking dominating when he's on the ice.

I have no idea what any of these mean but they look really good. Sigh.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Huh? Speaking of reading things over, take your own advice

I said if you didn’t ‘like’ those discussions (and you did characterize them as obnoxious), there are other threads

I think it's less about the topic and more how you choose to talk to people.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Huh? Speaking of reading things over, take your own advice

I said if you didn’t ‘like’ those discussions (and you did characterize them as obnoxious), there are other threads

No, I said I didn't like the people taking it to extreme levels like you've been.

The actual discussion about the trade and Bennett's success afterward has been fun. Bennett fanboys vs Bennett haters is the obnoxious part

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

What an unmitigated disaster so far.

At least this might finally be the death knell for Treliving.

Have always been a Bennett supporter, but the implications for Treliving just make me cheer even harder for the kid.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I have no idea what any of these mean but they look really good. Sigh.

It means that two out of every three dangerous scoring chances or even just shot attempts, when Bennett is on the ice 5-on-5, is being directed towards the other team's goalie and not Bennett's goalie. And so far his goalies haven't allowed a goal with him on the ice in that scenario, although we know that part is largely luck-driven as players don't control their goalie's save percentage.

CF - Shot Attempts
SF - Shots
xGF - expected goals, based on location and angle of shot attempts
GF - Goals
SC - scoring chances in the home plate area or on the rush
HDSC - the highest danger scoring chances
HDGF - Goals scored from those HDSC,

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Jore

Did Bennett ‘earn’ time with Huberdeau? Quenneville, one of the best coaches of the past few decades, put him there without ever having him on his team. Why didn’t Q put Bennett with Lomberg and make him earn his way up?

As for the bolded, it’s a massive indictment on the Flames that they did not recognize what kinds of players Jankowski and Bennett are and tried to groom Bennett on the wing of a fourth liner. And I feel like I don’t really have to say much about the wingers that ‘scored before,’ if you don’t think that putting him with Brouwer and Neal were detrimental to his development I’m not sure what else there is to say. Btw it’s also a huge indictment on BT that those were the best winters he could summon with his 5 mil AAV contracts

Under this logic Caufield will also be a bust cause hes playing 4th line minutes with Jake Evans and Lehkonen. Cozens playing with Bjork and Caggiula? You're acting like the Flames are the only team that actually make their top prospects earn top 6 spots. Brouwer and Neal have been much more productive players in their careers than the linemates just mentioned. A good player will find a way for coaches to use them more. Bennett just didn't do that here.

[tvp2003]

I wonder if there was this much consternation in San Jose, when we not only got Kipper for a 2nd rounder, but he was a big reason why Calgary knocked San Jose out in the Conference Final that very same year.

Hopefully the hockey gods will even things out by giving us the next Marc-Eduoard Vlasic in the draft...

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by btimbit

No, I said I didn't like the people taking it to extreme levels like you've been.

The actual discussion about the trade and Bennett's success afterward has been fun. Bennett fanboys vs Bennett haters is the obnoxious part

Look, the guy thanking all of your posts is the one who brought out the word extreme

I just said there is no way the Flames come out of this looking good

He called it extreme, I laid out a number of reasons why I find it reasonable

I don’t see the issue

And I thought the hostage negotiator thing was funny. Not hilarious, but not my worst either

The word obnoxious is not a de-escalator.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I wonder if there was this much consternation in San Jose, when we not only got Kipper for a 2nd rounder, but he was a big reason why Calgary knocked San Jose out in the Conference Final that very same year.

Hopefully the hockey gods will even things out by giving us the next Marc-Eduoard Vlasic in the draft...

San Jose was enjoying a lot of success during that tie period, though I'm sure there was some regret, including because sometimes goaltending wasn't great there.

But a combo of an under-achieving team + players doing better when they leave = unhappy campers.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Look, the guy thanking all of your posts is the one who brought out the word extreme

I just said there is no way the Flames come out of this looking good

He called it extreme, I laid out a number of reasons why I find it reasonable

I don’t see the issue

And I thought the hostage negotiator thing was funny. Not hilarious, but not my worst either

The word obnoxious is not a de-escalator. I’d think a mod would discourage it, but hey, I guess I am wrong

Leave my status as a mod out of it please. I don't think I've ever handed out an infraction or warning for something as piddly as someone using the world "obnoxious".

[DeluxeMoustache]

Fair, it’s removed

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jore

Did Bennett ‘earn’ time with Huberdeau? Quenneville, one of the best coaches of the past few decades, put him there without ever having him on his team. Why didn’t Q put Bennett with Lomberg and make him earn his way up?

As for the bolded, it’s a massive indictment on the Flames that they did not recognize what kinds of players Jankowski and Bennett are and tried to groom Bennett on the wing of a fourth liner. And I feel like I don’t really have to say much about the wingers that ‘scored before,’ if you don’t think that putting him with Brouwer and Neal were detrimental to his development I’m not sure what else there is to say. Btw it’s also a huge indictment on BT that those were the best wingers he could summon with his 5 mil AAV contracts

It’s pretty standard to put a newly acquired guy in a top position just to see if you can benefit from adrenaline, etc. The Flames put Stewart on the top line his first game. Sometimes it pays off. It’s also pretty non-standard to put a rookie on the top line just because. And moreover, people are asking why coaches didn’t yank Monahan off the line in place of Bennett? Seriously? We aren’t talking the last couple years, we are talking when that duo was hot. And people are, in hindsight, saying split them up in favour of Bennett, who half the people here didn’t even think should play up the middle?

[Classic_Sniper]

So Sam Bennett with the OT winner and another 6 hits last night!? Jeez that’s a lot of physicality. I hate to rag on Monahan again, but Treliving really should’ve pulled the trigger on a Monahan trade last year. If it came down to keeping either Sam Bennett or Sean Monahan, I think a case could’ve easily been made to keep the former. He’s considerably cheaper and a way better playoff performer.

As we speak, we’re not seeing much play driving from Monahan right now anyway. So if a Josh Anderson trade or something comparable could’ve been made, then having a second line of Mangiapane-Bennett-Anderson could’ve been an absolute nightmare to deal with especially in the playoffs. Their heaviness and physicality and ability to relentlessly check could’ve been something special to watch. Sam Bennett’s next contract would’ve came in a lot lower then $6.375M too I’d bet.

Alas, Tre and co now have to sit and watch to see what went wrong again. Perhaps going into season with the shallowest right wing depth in the league wasn’t such a good idea. Or perhaps picking Monahan or over Bennett was the mistake. Who knows, it’s his cross to bear at this point.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

Under this logic Caufield will also be a bust cause hes playing 4th line minutes with Jake Evans and Lehkonen. Cozens playing with Bjork and Caggiula? You're acting like the Flames are the only team that actually make their top prospects earn top 6 spots. Brouwer and Neal have been much more productive players in their careers than the linemates just mentioned. A good player will find a way for coaches to use them more. Bennett just didn't do that here.

Those are first year players, and I wouldn't exactly point to Montreal and Buffalo as models of youth development. If Caulfield is Montreal's best player every playoffs and still gets played with Evans and Lehkonen for 3 three years and gets traded and breaks out elsewhere with real opportunity then the comparison would make more sense. I won't get into an argument about the effectiveness of Brouwer and Neal as Flames. I think we all understand what caliber of players they were.

I also didn't say the Flames are the only ones stifling prospects. But again, what exactly about the Flames track record over the last three decades makes fans want to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to team construction and prospect development?

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s pretty standard to put a newly acquired guy in a top position just to see if you can benefit from adrenaline, etc. The Flames put Stewart on the top line his first game. Sometimes it pays off. It’s also pretty non-standard to put a rookie on the top line just because. And moreover, people are asking why coaches didn’t yank Monahan off the line in place of Bennett? Seriously? We aren’t talking the last couple years, we are talking when that duo was hot. And people are, in hindsight, saying split them up in favour of Bennett, who half the people here didn’t even think should play up the middle?

Can you name some other players who went from 4th line winger to 2nd line center? Who was arguing that rookie Bennett should be on the top line? I'm saying that Bennett shouldn't be playing with AHL plugs off his natural position. That it's hard to "earn" your way up that way. Boudreau moved a floundering 4th line Backstrom to centre Ovechkin in his first game as coach. His loss for not following "standard" practice.

I don't care what half of the people here said, just because an opinion is popular or vocally expressed doesn't mean it's right. I've been talking about Monahan's deficiencies for years.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

Under this logic Caufield will also be a bust cause hes playing 4th line minutes with Jake Evans and Lehkonen. Cozens playing with Bjork and Caggiula? You're acting like the Flames are the only team that actually make their top prospects earn top 6 spots.

Not the same logic. Those are rookies and they're being asked to get used to the pace of the league. They're not being measured by production yet. Bennett was able to play at NHL pace nine games into his career which is why they burned the first two years of his ELC. And his rookie season was perfectly respectable - better than Monahan's rookie season for instance.

Then he was asked to carry our depth guys. Those bottom six carry roles are typically reserved for over-30 vets - the Stajan, Ryan, Backlund types who have little left to prove in their careers. It's remarkably uncommon for teams to place 4th overall picks in their bottom six with bottom six icetime. The Oilers did so and they nearly botched Puljujarvi's development too, though they've come to their senses.

Not 20,21,22 year olds who know they have a lot more to give and would get frustrated by a glass ceiling.

Though that logic you refer to is why sophomore players tend to have huge "breakout" years after middling or worse rookie years. See Leon Draisaitl - 3rd line bust as a rookie, 1st line stud as a sophomore with Hall on his line.

Linemate quality is a huge driver of success in the NHL. Even Nathan MacKinnon didn't live up to his hype until the Avs added Rantanen.

[automaton 3]

Yikes this thread. Bennett played 402 games and 6+ seasons for the Flames. He played up and down the lineup and looked really good for short stretches but never sustained. He even scored 4 once. We've seen it all.

It's not like Florida found his hidden "go" switch. If he can keep this pace going, awesome for him. He had plenty of opportunities here but simply didn't get it done.

[CliffFletcher]

I’ve never understood the notion that if a player plays really well on another team you lost a trade. There’s no reason to believe Bennett would have been lighting it up long term if he wasn’t moved, and no reason to believe there were better offers available out there than one Treliving got from Florida.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Yikes this thread. Bennett played 402 games and 6+ seasons for the Flames. He played up and down the lineup and looked really good for short stretches but never sustained. He even scored 4 once. We've seen it all.

It's not like Florida found his hidden "go" switch. If he can keep this pace going, awesome for him. He had plenty of opportunities here but simply didn't get it done.

This argument has been refuted by linemate and ice time data, time and again

Just because people keep saying it doesn’t mean it’s true

That’s why the people who have called it out for years are pleased to see that their suspicions are being confirmed

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’ve never understood the notion that if a player plays really well on another team you lost a trade. There’s no reason to believe Bennett would have been lighting it up long term if he wasn’t moved, and no reason to believe there were better offers available out there than one Treliving got from Florida.

No, Florida doesn't have some magical formula that turned Bennett into a #1 center overnight. It just highlights how truly poor the Flames roster is. As good as Gaudreau can be when he's actually trying, nobody on the team can take over a game like Barkov or Huberdeau can, and that's been the difference. They make everyone on the team with them better.

Florida's top guys actually play like top guys. The Flames' top guys play like they want to be traded.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jore

Those are first year players, and I wouldn't exactly point to Montreal and Buffalo as models of youth development. If Caulfield is Montreal's best player every playoffs and still gets played with Evans and Lehkonen for 3 three years and gets traded and breaks out elsewhere with real opportunity then the comparison would make more sense. I won't get into an argument about the effectiveness of Brouwer and Neal as Flames. I think most people understand what caliber of players they were.

I also didn't say the Flames are the only ones stifling prospects. But again, what exactly about the Flames track record over the last three decades makes fans want to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to team construction and prospect development?



Can you name some other players who went from 4th line winger to 2nd line center? Who was arguing that rookie Bennett should be on the top line? I'm saying that Bennett shouldn't be playing with AHL plugs off his natural position. That it's hard to "earn" your way up that way. Boudreau moved a floundering 4th line Backstrom to centre Ovechkin in his first game as coach. His loss for not following "standard" practice.

I don't care what half of the people here said, just because an opinion is popular or vocally expressed doesn't mean it's right. I've been talking about Monahan's deficiencies for years.

A bunch of people are now talking about putting Bennett with Gaudreau instead of Monahan, like that was ever a discussion in the past. That’s top line insertion.

And exaggeration doesn’t help. Bennett was never on the 4th line (with Stajan) not counting this year. He was always second line with Backlund or 3rd line with Jankowski or the Lucic/Dube versions. He’s played with hardly any “AHL plugs” either. Just not the best guys on the team. Last year his most common linemates were Janko, Reider, Lucic, Ryan, Mangiapane, Dube. Not AHL plugs. The year before: Backlund, Tkachuk (24%). The year before that, you might have an argument because he played with Hathaway a lot. But only after Jagr left. Before that, Versteeg and Brouwer. Again, not top talent, but not AHL. Veterans who had scored in the past. The year before that, Backlund and Frolik.

Theo Fleury started on the 3rd/4th line. Earned his way up.