Johnny Gaudreau: Trade or Keep?

[Psytic]

To add we traded Hamilton and got Lindholm and Hanafin like I say it doesn't have to be a loss trading our stars it just has to be an organizational fit. Flames have had years of bad GMs to okay GMs but just because Feaster and Riseborough got pantsed doesn't mean Tre is also a moron and unable to pull off win win trades like the Preds and Avs.

You dont have to hold onto someone just because they are good they have to fit what you are trying to build. Nothing stopping the Flames from acquiring someone else equally as good with a skill set that is a better fit for what they are trying to achieve. Right now we have to let him work it out as his value is at its lowest point but if the Flames aren't a second round team this year then yea i'm looking to move a major piece to get the right mix.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Sorry. I never meant that Backlund should be scoring more than Gaudreau. Just that Backlund and our centre depth to me is more of a problem for the Flames than Johnny.

Fully agree with this. I think we should be trying to build a strong center depth and forward depth before trading off Johnny.

IMO he's like Tarasenko for the Blues, not going to carry your team to the Cup, but he's a key part of your offensive core.

[djsFlames]

Sit johnny for one.

Its not that outlandish. Bob sat him and Monahan and they won that game.

He may even thank the coaching staff later if it helps to refocus him by watching his team from a different perspective.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Psytic

To add we traded Hamilton and got Lindholm and Hanafin like I say it doesn't have to be a loss trading our stars it just has to be an organizational fit. Flames have had years of bad GMs to okay GMs but just because Feaster and Riseborough got pantsed doesn't mean Tre is also a moron and unable to pull off win win trades like the Preds and Avs.

You don't have to hold onto someone just because they are good they have to fit what you are trying to build. Nothing stopping the Flames from acquiring someone else equally as good with a skill set that is a better fit for what they are trying to achieve. Right now we have to let him work it out as his value is at its lowest point but if the Flames aren't a second round team this year then yea i'm looking to move a major piece to get the right mix.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, and if you're Tre and you trust your process and believe you know whats best for the Flames then you pull the trigger and live with the consequences. But as a poster previously mentioned I don't blame Flames fans for being gun shy when it comes to trading superstars.

A bit unrelated to your post but the Preds/Avs comparisons are a bit different only because they were trading from a position of strength where if the return wasn't a complete win then they had some insulation. Preds had Josi, Ekholm and Ellis and the Avs knew they had a legitimate #1 centre in Mackinnon to build a team around. The Flames, if they were to trade Gaudreau, and the return isn't a win then there isn't much in the pipeline to hedge against that loss. I always felt that the teams that trade well often trade from a position of strength.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I don't disagree with what you're saying, and if you're Tre and you trust your process and believe you know whats best for the Flames then you pull the trigger and live with the consequences. But as a poster previously mentioned I don't blame Flames fans for being gun shy when it comes to trading superstars.

A bit unrelated to your post but the Preds/Avs comparisons are a bit different only because they were trading from a position of strength where if the return wasn't a complete win then they had some insulation. Preds had Josi, Ekholm and Ellis and the Avs knew they had a legitimate #1 centre in Mackinnon to build a team around. The Flames, if they were to trade Gaudreau, and the return isn't a win then there isn't much in the pipeline to hedge against that loss. I always felt that the teams that trade well often trade from a position of strength.

True and if it wasnt for a bad string of luck on the back end we could have possibly moved Brodie and Hamonic this year already for help and Valimaki could be playing on the bottom pairing. Frolik is a 4 th liner now and we narrowly missed out on selling high on him. It just seems like an incredibly bad run of luck. I'm giving Tre a lot of rope just due to this fact. I cant say he isn't trying its just been a bad turn of events this year. If the Flames had more time on Johnnys contract it wouldn't be so bad working a way out of this mess.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Sit johnny for one.

Its not that outlandish. Bob sat him and Monahan and they won that game.

He may even thank the coaching staff later if it helps to refocus him.

I'm not against sitting him but it can't be sold as him being a healthy scratch. That's embarassing, and also potentially relationship damaging, more so in this day and age than it was in the 80s and early 90s. You basically have to warm him up to the idea of taking a night off, and then selling it as an illness.

Worked with him when he was a rookie and didn't score in his first 5 or 6 games, but he was a rookie and it was easy to just make him a healthy scratch. Now that he's the heart and soul of the offense it gets tricky to sit him.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Sit johnny for one.

Its not that outlandish. Bob sat him and Monahan and they won that game.

He may even thank the coaching staff later if it helps to refocus him by watching his team from a different perspective.

Sitting your best player and your only perennial all-star rep is a sure fire way to him leaving town and not seeing another true super star play here for a long time.

[Manhattanboy]

Sorry am not paying for season tix to see JG sit in the press box.

If he was out partying the night before a game or something along those lines fine.

Sitting your star because he’s struggling is nuts.

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Sorry am not paying for season tix to see JG sit in the press box.

If he was out partying the night before a game or something along those lines fine.

Sitting your star because he’s struggling is nuts.

I agree. The only way for JG to find his game, is to play the game.
He's not going to learn sitting in the press box. I only see that frustrating a player of his caliber even more.

[Classic_Sniper]

I can't believe this is even a thread. We're 20 some games into the season here after a career high 99 point campaign the season prior. He's just in a rut right now. He's bobbling pucks on his stick, his nifty plays are resulting in turnovers and he looks like he's skating in quicksand out there. His confidence is just low right now.

It's like people haven't seen Gaudreau struggle before or something. I remember in 16-17 when he was playing even worse than this. I remember vividly there was a game in Montreal where I believe he pulled up in the offensive zone, curled, fell down and Montreal scored on the ensuing turnover and Johnny sat on the bench cursing at himself about 50 times. I had never seen a player so hard on them-self after a bad play. That was probably rock bottom for Gaudreau, yet he still fought through that and finished off the season strong and then followed that up with 2 career high seasons.

This is a guy who finished 4th in MVP voting a few months ago. Sits only behind Crosby, Kane and Kucherov in even strength scoring since he started playing in this league and consistently is at the top in percentage of his team's overall goals. This is not a player you can just trade and find an easy replacement.

I'll say this, if Gaudreau had a Mackinnon or a Barkov as his center. I think he'd be a perennial Art Ross Trophy contender every season. I remember Gaudreau being the best or second best forward on that team North America roster. Trading him would just ultimately hurt everyone else on the team because he draws all the double teams which gives time and space for all his other line mates.

[timbit]

People/ players are motivated in one of 2 ways.

Positive or negative energy.

Whichever it takes is an important evaluation and subsequent decision in being a successful coach.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by timbit

People/ players are motivated in one of 2 ways.

Positive or negative energy.

Whichever it takes is an important evaluation and subsequent decision in being a successful coach.

I think the reality is that players are more infrequently motivated by negative energy then they were in past eras or generations.

Negativity doesn't work on this younger crop of players.

Which is why Babcock was just canned and why one of his acolytes in Peters in on the hot seat.

[shutout]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think the reality is that players are more infrequently motivated by negative energy then they were in past eras or generations.

Negativity doesn't work on this younger crop of players.

Which is why Babcock was just canned and why one of his acolytes in Peters in on the hot seat.

Its a players league right now and the coach has very little power.
Players now want somebody that is going to stroke them and make them feel good about themselves. Anybody who wants to help them improve and play better is just too damn demanding.

Managers are supposed to build the team. The coach is supposed to put the best strategy in place for the talent provided and teach that system. Players are supposed to execute the system. For people purported to be "alpha male" "leaders" that "hate to lose" they should be able to execute and motivate themselves. Instead its a powerless coach who has to coddle and motivate a bunch of millionaires to actually go out there and not only earn their paycheck but try hard enough in the game that they are supposed to love.

Might as well treat the NHL like the local beer league team where the players determine how they are going to play and just police themselves. Problem with that is you lose the coach as the scapegoat when it all goes to crap.

[CliffFletcher]

Is "you have to play as hard without the puck as you do with it" really negative energy?

Barry Trotz has a mediocre roster playing great hockey because everybody buys in. Everybody.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah Barry Trotz and Craig Berube won the last two Stanley Cups and my take is they are very similar type of personalities to Bill Peters.

I don't think you need to be a "soft" coach at all to win in the new NHL.

The 53-year-old Berube, a former NHL enforcer from a tiny hamlet in Alberta, Canada, won over the team by holding everyone accountable, including himself.

"Whether it's through ice time, where you fit in in the lineup on a nightly basis," Berube said. "It's really conversations with the players more than anything. It's just putting the team-first mindset and drilling it into the team. That's really, basically it. It takes a lot of work, it's every day, but it's getting that team-first mindset. Once we started to get that and once I started to see guys fitting in certain areas, we were playing pretty good hockey, we just weren't getting the wins and that started to come."

I actually wonder if part of the reason that Peters has lost the room is from not holding his top guys accountable.

What type of "punishment" have Gaudreau, Monahan, etc had for their poor play this season?

Maybe they should see reduced ice time and being sat more if the poor play continues.

[CliffFletcher]

I know it's Francis, but this interview with Geoff Ward (not known as a hard-ass) is illuminating:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...uys-hate-lose/

“Collectively, when we’re sick and tired of losing, we’ll find a way to win a game. Right now the frustration is reflected in the work ethic, and the work ethic isn’t where it needs to be to win hockey games, and we need to rectify it.”

"... We need to be better away from the puck. We need to be more committed and more accountable to the process, and once that happens you’re going to see it turn.”

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I actually wonder if part of the reason that Peters has lost the room is from not holding his top guys accountable.

What type of "punishment" have Gaudreau, Monahan, etc had for their poor play this season?

Maybe they should see reduced ice time and being sat more if the poor play continues.

I'm not sure your use of the word "punishment" was what you really meant, as these are 2nd graders.

Monny isn't scoring but he really isn't playing that poorly, he's getting his chances.

But Calgary won't win without Johnny and Monny producing so I'm not sure sitting them is the answer.

I think there's some chance that sitting Johnny could drive a wedge between Johnny and management and force an ill-advised trade.

[Manhattanboy]

Can we vote to shut down this thread?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Keep. C'mon now.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I know it's Francis, but this interview with Geoff Ward (not known as a hard-ass) is illuminating:

Geoff Ward said that on air last night after the game.



And he is 100% correct.