Pentagon releases UFO videos

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Muta

Fair enough, I respect that. Honestly, thank you for being cordial in your response.

This could be a nice moment. Too bad he won't just leave it at that.

He has to "save" the people on the fence. Because that sort of objective typically goes well.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

He has to "save" the people on the fence. Because that sort of objective typically goes well.

Yeah this is an odd battle to fight. Instead, present people objective evidence and let people make their own mind up. Trying to make them skeptics is a biased approach with a biased objective. Just help make them informed, and don't be surprised if they go the other way too when they take an interest in the topic.

Which is why I think it's important to post news and ideas about this subject. Let people decide for themselves. It just happens to be getting more traction lately after years of dormancy. But don't shun those who pick another belief than you do, and just be polite about it as much as you can.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I watched a doc that touched on Heaven’s Gate yesterday, which I admittedly didn’t know much about. Super fascinating, but reminded me of this discussion.

- Formed a religion based on UFOs with the two founders believing they’re aliens
- Collected a bunch of believers with the idea that they were all actually aliens and would “ascend”
- Time goes by, they get tired of people questioning them or mocking them in recruitment drives, so they basically shut off the outside world and stop welcoming people in
- By all accounts are peaceful, happy, productive members of society. Heaven’s Gate is a happy, fun place. Everyone is always smiling and they’re by all accounts great neighbours.
- Eventually decide it’s time to ascend, record videos about how happy they are and how amazing this is, cracking lighthearted jokes and enjoying just being together with their closed off group
- Proceed with one of the biggest mass suicide events in recent history, with 40ish people killing themselves.

Safe to say, skepticism around the topic of UFOs and avoiding the creation of a closed-off group where skeptics aren’t welcome and everyone can be happy and have a great time is… not the worst thing.

Lol talk about logical leaps. A closed off group of people believing specific things and avoiding skeptics doesn't automatically march down the path of mass suicide cult.

I want there to be skeptics debating. I seem to have been lumped into true believer camp but I consider myself a skeptic. I just also like attacking skeptic positions that I believe are inadequate.

HOWEVER, I think a lot of what has happened in the last 5~ pages of this thread isn't skepticism, it's disrespectful and dismissive, or diminutive. Comparing people here who believe that UAPs could actually be alien tech (something serious enough to have an honest to god congressional hearing about in the most powerful political body on earth) to heaven's gate cultists is stupid as #### and not cool.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by jammies

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm never trying to convince the believers - that's usually a lost cause. The hope is to make it harder for the believers to recruit more believers and to have the undecided but interested person think about what is being said, and make it easier for them to get into the habit of thinking critically and skeptically by giving tangible examples of those to ponder.

You think you can influence people to not think irrationally, and exercise critical thought (or at least your definition of it) before deciding what side they'll take on an issue? Good luck with that. Not sure you've met people in the 21st century but... newsflash, people are highly irrational creatures. And they tend to side with their emotions and pre-existung values over cold hard logic. And you're calling those who entertain this subject unrealistic.. Unless you're a celebrity influencer IRL, good luck realizing this.. savior complex? And spoiler alert, but people tend to push back or resist when someone advises them on how they should think.

If everyone was of the school of Spock we wouldn't be the human race. And even Spock caved to his human instincts. Our ability to dream up possibilities and be inspired by our faith in an idea is part of what makes us what we are. But it doesn't mean it's all misguided fantasy. In this case, I think plenty of people are able to balance reason, science and possibility. At least a good portion of them.

It's actually important that we entertain possibilities, because this is also how we got to where we are today as a civilization. Someone had to think outside of the box and believe in something that wasn't yet proven to be possible in order to have all the gadgets, tools and conveniences we have today. Otherwise we would still be living in a primitive fashion by comparison. And at the time the same hard line realists probably didn't believe in their work or what they believed was possible. Show a smartphone, or the internet to someone 500 years, even 100 years ago and they'd chalk it up to magic or science fiction.

I think a true realist would also be able to consider this, and look at recent history to project 100 or 500 years into the future and acknowledge that there will be more many more groundbreaking discoveries, and more things we believe today aren't possible that we will solve at some point. We may discover a new form of propulsion or way to traverse the universe that will totally alter the currently impossible-seeming idea that the same couldn't be done by another species with thousands of years of progression on us to arrive here in some form or fashion.

The above is why only looking at things through the lens of what we know currently/thus far while discounting what the future will reveal is also shortsighted thinking in its own right.

[SportsJunky]

Don't some of you guys also frequent the WWE thread? Honestly, I don't know which is sillier. Some of you folks are being a little silly. That's not a closed-minded opinion.

Also, I blame Slava for starting this thread in the first place lol.

[bdubbs]

The last few pages have been pretty useless, but somewhat entertaining. I am trying really hard to picture two grown men sitting at a table being as petty as Muta and Fuzz are to one another.

Isn't it a normal thing for someone to drop their ego and apologize? "I'm sorry I misinterpreted your comment." "Cool man, I'm sorry I didn't clarify my comment after your misinterpretation."

Sheesh.

[Muta]

Honestly, the stuff this morning is now just being dragged on by posters who are now commenting hours after all others have already moved on. Can we get back to posts contributing to the UAP/UFO topic at hand?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Lol talk about logical leaps. A closed off group of people believing specific things and avoiding skeptics doesn't automatically march down the path of mass suicide cult.

I want there to be skeptics debating. I seem to have been lumped into true believer camp but I consider myself a skeptic. I just also like attacking skeptic positions that I believe are inadequate.

HOWEVER, I think a lot of what has happened in the last 5~ pages of this thread isn't skepticism, it's disrespectful and dismissive, or diminutive. Comparing people here who believe that UAPs could actually be alien tech (something serious enough to have an honest to god congressional hearing about in the most powerful political body on earth) to heaven's gate cultists is stupid as #### and not cool.

Relax, it just reminded me of it, and not because people believe UAPs could be alien tech, but because of the select few who seem skepticism-adverse and wanted to close off this thread from anyone who wasn’t “open minded” (aka as fully accepting of the specific possibilities they are most interested in) or as “fun” as they want them to be.

And the fact that it reminded me of some of these attitudes isn’t an insinuation that anybody here is headed for mass suicide, it’s to make the point that skepticism is healthy and good and balancing the more outlandish possibilities with criticism and attempts to poke holes in those possibilities is an inherently good thing. And when people say “what’s the problem in letting other believe what they want to believe as much as they want to believe it?” well, a mass suicide cult is a pretty good example of it, no?

Why do you find the mention of it so insulting?

[FacePaint]

I'm in the camp that believes in alien life but nothing sentient that has made contact. It's super interesting and cool to imagine but it feels like pushing skeptical opinions backs people up against the wall so let folks have their fun. Anyway, wondering if anyone listens to the podcast Skeptoid? He's got a good section on Aliens/UFO and I think the January 10, 2023 episode it's solid.

[Monahammer]

I just think it's purposely belittling of anyone who is open to the notion of these craft being not-of-earth.

I understand your point but don't you think comparing the camp of people you've identified to a death cult may only fortify said camp's opinion that you aren't being open minded to their opinion?

You're saying you want them to accept skepticism, I agree, skepticism is healthy. But then you can't expect them to respect your opinion when you are comparing them to an obviously insane group of people who chose suicide to allowing criticism of their beliefs. It's the same level of crazy, just shooting the other way.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by FacePaint

I'm in the camp that believes in alien life but nothing sentient that has made contact. It's super interesting and cool to imagine but it feels like pushing skeptical opinions backs people up against the wall so let folks have their fun. Anyway, wondering if anyone listens to the podcast Skeptoid? He's got a good section on Aliens/UFO and I think the January 10, 2023 episode it's solid.

I'll recommend one too! That UFO Podcast has to be one of the premier shows around. The host, Andy, is informed, polite, courteous, and with a delightful Scottish accent. He also brings on some great guests, and keeps you up to speed on the latest happening in the UAP community.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FacePaint

I'm in the camp that believes in alien life but nothing sentient that has made contact. It's super interesting and cool to imagine but it feels like pushing skeptical opinions backs people up against the wall so let folks have their fun. Anyway, wondering if anyone listens to the podcast Skeptoid? He's got a good section on Aliens/UFO and I think the January 10, 2023 episode it's solid.

It'd be interesting to have a better idea of how common life (including non-intelligent life) is. It's possible that there other life in our own solar system. We should explore far more within our own solar system. I'm a little hesitant to do that as it also runs the risk of someone bringing that stuff back to Earth.

That being said, Earth life is likely pretty hostile to new forms of life. Hence why all life on Earth, as far as we know, has a common ancestor.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I just think it's purposely belittling of anyone who is open to the notion of these craft being not-of-earth.

I understand your point but don't you think comparing the camp of people you've identified to a death cult may only fortify said camp's opinion that you aren't being open minded to their opinion?

You're saying you want them to accept skepticism, I agree, skepticism is healthy. But then you can't expect them to respect your opinion when you are comparing them to an obviously insane group of people who chose suicide to allowing criticism of their beliefs. It's the same level of crazy, just shooting the other way.

Nah, I think you just felt targeted by it for whatever reason when it literally has nothing to do with you. It did not remind me of “anyone who is open to the notion of these craft being not-of-earth.” Even I’m open to that. Was I belittling myself?

As I said, it specifically reminded me of the small sub-section of these people who happen to be very loud (for the reasons I already explained), but focus more on complaining about skepticism and wanting to close themselves off from skepticism or make skepticism unwelcome in this thread. I’m not open minded to that opinion. At all. I am happy if they don’t think I am. That opinion is dumb. I don’t care if they accept skepticism. But skepticism is going to remain welcome in the thread whether they roll out the red carpet for it or not.

I’m not even sure what “the same level of crazy shooting the other way” is supposed to mean. Are you saying I’m crazy because I was watching a documentary about happy-go-lucky UFO worshippers who closed themselves off from the world so they could just keep believing together and it reminded me of a thread I had posted in that day where a few happy-go-lucky UFO believers wanted to close the thread off so they could keep believing together in peace? Come on, it’s not a big leap. It would have reminded me of them if they didn’t off themselves, too. They also all wore Nike’s, which reminded me to look for a new pair of Air Max. Bro I must be insaaaane for making that connection. I don’t even know why you’re litigating what things remind me of other things lol.

Have you watched the videos made by the members of the cult they recorded before they died? They definitely don’t seem insane. Outside of an outlandish belief, they didn’t seem otherwise insane to anyone else, either. They kept good jobs, made a lot of money, contributed to society while they were here. Even the people who left the cult but kept believing. They are not “obviously” insane, they just seem like people who believe an absurd thing, so I would question whether you could identify “obvious” insanity before a truly insane action occurs.

If you can find those videos, give them a watch. Off topic obviously, but it’s pretty wild how not-insane they seem in the hours and days before they commit a pretty insane act.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I just think it's purposely belittling of anyone who is open to the notion of these craft being not-of-earth.

I understand your point but don't you think comparing the camp of people you've identified to a death cult may only fortify said camp's opinion that you aren't being open minded to their opinion?

You're saying you want them to accept skepticism, I agree, skepticism is healthy. But then you can't expect them to respect your opinion when you are comparing them to an obviously insane group of people who chose suicide to allowing criticism of their beliefs. It's the same level of crazy, just shooting the other way.

You'd think the topic being brought into congress would've softened some of the old attitudes and stereotypes but I guess stigma dies hard.

May have to double check in case I've experience some kind of fugue state, but pretty sure I'm not a member of any cult.

Also pretty sure no one here is trying to recruit people to abandon reality and move to the woods to watch the skies and herald the official arrival of our future overlords.

Nope, just ordinary blokes who sometimes enjoy the idea of an a non human intelligence being out there, and perhaps time to time reveling in the mysteries of what goes on at those max security air bases.

To take issue with that seems strange to me, in particular framing it like it's some kind of threat to the scientific process. Which leads me to believe there's a really warped perception of what those who enjoy the topic are like and what they actually do.

However, there does appear to be at least one skeptic here trying to recruit people to a cause, and discourage people from forming opinions of their own accord. Basically precisely the thing he fears and insinuates that the other group is (for whatever reason) intentionally doing.

I dunno, but I think the skeptics have earned some flak here. From the start they didn't come to participate in good faith, so I don't think they can complain about some reasonable shots fired the other way.

[PepsiFree]

The group chat can’t be that good if you’re still trying to convince people you weren’t the problem in this one.

[GGG]

I miss when Muta and Ozy would thank each others posts all of the time and it drove people crazy and people accused them of being brothers. It was amazing trolling. I forget who it drove crazy though.

It’s a few pages ago but I think simulation theory is a waste of time. It’s a deist god for atheists. It’s non-interventionist and does not affect our lives one way or another if we are at the top or bottom of the simulation.

Nothing we have ever observed violates entropy and that essentially prevents intervention (and miracles).

I think it’s an interesting academic question to understand the computing power required to drive such a simulation. Though even that is a waste of time because the physics outside the simulation could be fundamentally different than are universe such that the energy is trivial.

There is never a way to figure out we are in a simulation so whether it exists or not is immaterial.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by GGG

I miss when Muta and Ozy would thank each others posts all of the time and it drove people crazy and people accused them of being brothers. It was amazing trolling. I forget who it drove crazy though.

It’s a few pages ago but I think simulation theory is a waste of time. It’s a deist god for atheists. It’s non-interventionist and does not affect our lives one way or another if we are at the top or bottom of the simulation.

Nothing we have ever observed violates entropy and that essentially prevents intervention (and miracles).

I think it’s an interesting academic question to understand the computing power required to drive such a simulation. Though even that is a waste of time because the physics outside the simulation could be fundamentally different than are universe such that the energy is trivial.

There is never a way to figure out we are in a simulation so whether it exists or not is immaterial.

The only way we'll find out if we're in a simulation is if we go to the end of the universe and a pop up tells us "You cannot go that way".

[Ozy_Flame]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1686542442139402240

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Muta

Chris Mellon wrote a great article on Politico back in June (before the Congressional hearings) about his own work and where we are with this subject, it's actually a really interesting and pragmatic read:

If the Government Has UFO Crash Materials, It’s Time to Reveal Them

https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...gence-00100077

His last paragraph:

I would love to hear a description of the video he saw. Is there one available somewhere?

I watched some interviews with this guy on Youtube, and interestingly while he supports a lot of the same basic ideas, he is skeptical of Bob Lazar's story. I just assumed all people in this field were kind of on the same page.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

However, there does appear to be at least one skeptic here trying to recruit people to a cause, and discourage people from forming opinions of their own accord. Basically precisely the thing he fears and insinuates that the other group is (for whatever reason) intentionally doing.

The bolded is the opposite of what I'm trying to do - I want people to approach this subject, and every subject, by informing themselves and using reason. If someone looks at what we know about UFOs, and reasons their way to a conclusion that disagrees with mine, that's great - so long as they can articulate the steps behind their opinion in a way that is both consistent and reasonable, and not justifications (the "aliens of the gaps" arguments Fonz astutely referenced earlier in this thread) for what they'd like to or have been led to believe.

Once any of you can explain to me, for just ONE example, what makes time travelers a less likely explanation for seemingly (and I use that word deliberately) impossible phenomena than aliens, then I'll consider the "some UFOs must be aliens!" argument. Can you? If you can, why don't you? Actually TRY instead of retreating behind the "Spock makes me feel bad, make Spock stop!" whining that is tiresome for not only me, but I suspect almost everyone else.

Let it go and stop acting like I just burned your Koran in front of the TrentCrimm embassy. People disagree. Sometimes vehemently. Adults can move past that; be an adult.