[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Robbob]

It does intrigue me having Monahan and Lindholm on the same line where they can switch who takes the faceoff based on whose strong side it is on. I think Peters mentioned Lindholm was up there in FO%.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Robbob

It does intrigue me having Monahan and Lindholm on the same line where they can switch who takes the faceoff based on whose strong side it is on. I think Peters mentioned Lindholm was up there in FO%.

And, based on the 960 spot, trade notes on “how to be a captivating and enthusiastic interview subject.”

Two gems!

[Toonage]

I was happy to hear that he "wants to help the team win."

Thats always a concern I have.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And, based on the 960 spot, trade notes on “how to be a captivating and enthusiastic interview subject.”

Two gems!

Toasters tpically have two slots

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Toasters tpically have two slots

I don't know why but this metaphor makes me really happy, lol

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Derek Ryan has long been an appealing option to me -- I said the Flames should've traded for him at the deadline -- but I don't want him for more than two years. Max! He's 31!

31 but not a lot of hard miles on those tires. Very late to the NHL - so I think he could have a few years left.
Has got really good hands so I think he could add some punch to the bottom lines which is part of what this team needs.
I see it as an upgrade for sure.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

31 but not a lot of hard miles on those tires. Very late to the NHL - so I think he could have a few years left.
Has got really good hands so I think he could add some punch to the bottom lines which is part of what this team needs.
I see it as an upgrade for sure.

Hey I don't disagree, I've been advocating for him awhile.
I just think Treliving should avoid giving this guy too too much term. Depth adds shouldn't get more than 2 years as a general rule IMO

[Boreal]

Francis was on SiriusXM that afternoon with Patrick O’Sullivan and explicitly said that he wanted to tread lightly on the topic of Hamilton in the dressing room. He said his teammates don’t dislike him, but that Dougie was always smiling after losses, and he had the impression that management questioned his will to win/hate to lose mentality.

He never delved into any other details, but for those hating this trade try & appreciate that whatever problems the Flames management has with Hamilton, or Hamilton with management, they kept it under wraps to make a solid hockey trade, compared to what a firesale return might be.

Francis also said that he would make a heavy wager than Adam Fox will never play for Carolina & he wants to play for the Rangers or Isles. Based on Franny’s previous “lock” predictions I expect Fox to play for the Hurricanes next spring after Harvard’s season is done.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I haven't listened to Pinder for a long time but he seems to have grown a pair since he's got his own show. I'm not a huge fan but it's nice to see someone speak his mind instead the Steinburg/Kerr homer fest.

He rips this trade, Treliving's FA moves and his over valuing "character"

For those who missed it the audio is here

Pinder hates this deal.

In the Morning Show he said Ferland and Hamilton in Carolina will be "miles ahead" of Lindholm and Hanifin in Calgary this season, which I think is pretty dumb.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I haven't listened to Pinder for a long time but he seems to have grown a pair since he's got his own show. I'm not a huge fan but it's nice to see someone speak his mind instead the Steinburg/Kerr homer fest.

He rips this trade, Treliving's FA moves and his over valuing "character"

For those who missed it the audio is here

It was opinionated, so I enjoy the entertainment value.

But there is a LOT of circular reasoning going on.

So Carolina is going to easily motivate Dougie by bring in his brother and then Dougie will just snap his fingers and score 20? I wonder if any other team has tried that...

[getbak]

For all the talk about Dougie being angry about Freddie getting waived, the fact is, he played significantly better after Freddie was waived than before.

Freddie was claimed by Arizona on January 4. Up to that point in the season, Dougie had 4G, 12A in 39 games. After that point, he had 13G, 15A in 43 games.

If he was upset being without his brother, it didn't show on the ice.

[GioforPM]

I don't think Hamilton pouted after his brother was traded. I don't think he was a bad guy or disliked in the room. I can definitely see him being an odd guy and not chummy with the others and therefore not fitting in. Is that a reason to move him? No, and I don't think it's why he was. I think he was moved because Hanifin is younger, controllable for longer, has a similar skill set, perhaps is a better team fit and because he came with Lindholm.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by getbak

For all the talk about Dougie being angry about Freddie getting waived, the fact is, he played significantly better after Freddie was waived than before.

Freddie was claimed by Arizona on January 4. Up to that point in the season, Dougie had 4G, 12A in 39 games. After that point, he had 13G, 15A in 43 games.

If he was upset being without his brother, it didn't show on the ice.

I think the above misconception is part of the problem that management/coaches had with him. After Freddie got traded, to me it looked like Dougie focused on his offensive abilities as opposed to committing to his defensive responsibilities. Was it amazing to see a defender score a hat trick? Absolutely! However, it was not so amazing to watch the flames completely fold like a cheap tent despite his point streak. The flames sucking down the stretch was not his fault, but the kind of guys that focus just on their own game when times get tough are exactly the ones you don't want in a 7 game war.

Obvious in the above is that most of us would have quit on Glenn's stupidity but that is a subject for another day and quite honestly irrelevant when it comes to team sport.

[dammage79]

Who was calling out their team mate for padding stats? Was that Tkachuk? Was he talking about Hamilton?

[dino7c]

I remember Hamilton's hat trick celly in a game the Flames got their doors blown off. Also one of those goals clearly went off Matty but nobody wanted to take it away.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Who was calling out their team mate for padding stats? Was that Tkachuk? Was he talking about Hamilton?

I believe it was Treliving but I might be wrong

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

Francis was on SiriusXM that afternoon with Patrick O’Sullivan and explicitly said that he wanted to tread lightly on the topic of Hamilton in the dressing room. He said his teammates don’t dislike him, but that Dougie was always smiling after losses, and he had the impression that management questioned his will to win/hate to lose mentality.

Which ties in with the comment by Loubardias that he saw something in the Flames dressing room after a loss that made a deep impression on how he regarded Hamilton.

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

It was opinionated, so I enjoy the entertainment value.

But there is a LOT of circular reasoning going on.

So Carolina is going to easily motivate Dougie by bring in his brother and then Dougie will just snap his fingers and score 20? I wonder if any other team has tried that...

Yeah, Pinder was being pretty irrational there. Nobody in Calgary suggested Hamilton isn't motivated to score goals. They questioned whether he's motivated to play defence. But then Pinder doesn't seem to have a grasp of the defensive side of hockey. Maybe because it can't be as tidily quantified with stats as the offensive part of the game.

But you knew right off the bat when he said Lindholm is a downgrade on Ferland that he wasn't thinking straight.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Which ties in with the comment by Loubardias that he saw something in the Flames dressing room after a loss that made a deep impression on how he regarded Hamilton.



Yeah, Pinder was being pretty irrational there. Nobody in Calgary suggested Hamilton isn't motivated to score goals. They questioned whether he's motivated to play defence. But then Pinder doesn't seem to have a grasp of the defensive side of hockey. Maybe because it can't be as tidily quantified with stats as the offensive part of the game.

But you knew right off the bat when he said Lindholm is a downgrade on Ferland that he wasn't thinking straight.

Pinder is a smart guy and he is going to be a star in Canadian radio and maybe even further one day.

However, he is also way way to invested in both analytics and ignoring what he sees to form opinions, and then his pig-headedness takes over when it is pointed out how wrong he is.

He really doesn't value defensive hockey whatsoever and that was proven in spades when he finally stopped his endless chirping of Engelland after seeing exactly how valuable he was this past season. He had been told repeatedly for a couple years that Engellands contributions werent going to be found in some made up chart, but he refused entirely to listen. He would get very very smarmy about it on top of that.

Once he gets over that kind of stubborness, he will be fine though.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Pinder is a smart guy and he is going to be a star in Canadian radio and maybe even further one day.

However, he is also way way to invested in both analytics and ignoring what he sees to form opinions, and then his pig-headedness takes over when it is pointed out how wrong he is.

He really doesn't value defensive hockey whatsoever and that was proven in spades when he finally stopped his endless chirping of Engelland after seeing exactly how valuable he was this past season. He had been told repeatedly for a couple years that Engellands contributions werent going to be found in some made up chart, but he refused entirely to listen. He would get very very smarmy about it on top of that.

Once he gets over that kind of stubborness, he will be fine though.

I agree & I find Kent Wilson to have similar takes. Analytics tell A. story, not Thee story. Analytics are only as god as the question they ask.

Are the questions description, predictive, or prescriptive?

If you run the possession numbers & make an observation something like;

Coach X “sheltering” player Z based on offensive vs. defensive starts you fail to understand the coaches motives. Maybe they’re “sheltering” a player, or maybe they’re trying to drive offence.

Frequently, analytics created in the media are just selling a narrative created out of their own questions which may be correct or incorrect, but they frequently peddle it as absolute fact, when the premise may be off base completely.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The only piece that I believe the Flames will actually miss is Ferland. People look at "only two fights" and "he does't play the way he did against Vancouver" and figure he just isn't physical, but that's just not the case. When he hits, he hurts, and he led the Flames last year and the year before in hits. Nobody on this team hit more than Ferland, and nobody came close to hitting as hard either. Yeah, he didn't fight that much, but he was always willing to fight. It seemed that even under Hartley, he was reigned-in somewhat, but when it needed to get done, he stepped up and did it.


For all the 'he is just a glorified 4th liner' and 'just fed off Gaudreau and Monahan' - I also think this is nonsense. He was good in the defensive zone, he was great at carrying the puck and making plays, he was fantastic in the corners, and he was talented enough to convert on his chances. The whole team had issues converting with the exception of that top line. You might argue that he was simply a complimentary player, and you may be right with that, but he was very good in that role. It is easy to see why Treliving said it hurts to lose Ferland. I will miss him greatly on this team.


As for Hamilton - meh. Without a doubt, he was a good scoring defencemen. However, I hated how often he would shoot the puck instead of making a better play. He just always seemed selfish out there to me. Maybe the CF stats was better with Hamilton and Giordano, but the whole team got better and played much more of a puck-possession style under Gulutzan, so was Gio-Hamilton REALLY better than Gio-Brodie? It may not have been. I much prefer how dynamic Brodie is, and I look forward to his resurgence next season playing his strong side, with a partner he is comfortable with, and according to Peters - playing a more uptempo and quicker-transitioning system. That's a recipe for Brodie to return to what he used to be, and IMO, was a much more valuable piece to the Flames than Hamilton was. Why? Because I saw a Brodie that made other players around him better. Hamilton had substantial value without a doubt, but so did the 2 players coming back.


Fox - he may end up becoming something special, maybe not. Either way, it doesn't matter. When a prospect makes it known that he is not going to sign with your team, his value plummets, especially when he is returning to the NCAA for the season. I don't even factor Fox into the equation really.


What is most important to me is "will this team be harder to play against, and will they have more chemistry"? If they do, that's a win. There was 5 good players that changed teams. Nobody can call this a win. Hamilton can score 20+ goals next season, and Ferland can continue his increasingly strong play and come close to 30 goals, and the players that Calgary acquired may fizzle out. Or vice-versa. Maybe these 4 players all do well, and both teams improve. There doesn't have to be a 'loser' and a 'winner'. Both teams can win in this trade, and I bet that is what happens this season. Long-term, you have to like the increased control the Flames have. I don't like the short-term loss of the physicality - guys like Ferland are so important in playoff series, and I thought Ferland was fantastic in every playoff other than the 2nd round Ducks match-up in which he entered it with broken (bruised?) ribs and only played a game.


It sounds a lot like Hanifin is going to be better at carrying the puck up the ice and making a strong play than Hamilton, which is why I love Brodie so much. For me, that could already be a win.


I can understand both sides of the argument here - saying that the Flames are better off and others saying that the Flames are worse off. That's usually the case with a solid trade to both teams. For me, I am right down the middle on it. I see the Flames losing out on some physicality and potentially some goal scoring, but I think they can absorb the goal scoring due to the new system and the rumored free agent/trade talk. I think there are pluses and minuses on either side of the equation, and it is impossible to definitively state a winner or a loser at this point.



One thing that I hope doesn't happen is the Flames reaching on picks again to shore-up on the toughness/physicality. Smith, Kanzig, Carrol, etc. - all players that the Flames chose in the attempt to get bigger - Feaster stated that the team needs to get bigger, and of course Burke felt the same way. Ferland was a bona fide power-forward who was able to play on the top line and produce - that's not easy to find. Complimentary? Maybe. Driving force at times? Maybe. Either way, he was the best player that the Flames had on that top line in years since Hudler went into God-mode that one season. Either way, in playoff drives, you need a Ferland, but at least we have a Tkachuk, a Bennett, a Hamonic.. all talented players that show better in the playoffs. Just hoping the Flames don't start reaching.


One guy I would love to get to replace Ferland would be Lowry from Winnipeg. Not sure what their cap situation is like, but I would love him in Calgary, though he doesn't have the hands that Ferland had.


Either way, I am eager to see how this team responds to the new personnel and coaching staff this upcoming season. Change was absolutely necessary, and there is without a doubt some fresh air on this team. This will not be a painfully boring team to watch like they were last season. Change is good, even if it means good players leaving the team. It is all about chemistry.



One thing that Lindholm will bring this team is a bit more versatility. I mean, Ferland I found to be extremely versatile - he can play a 4th line role well, he can play a top line role well. Lindholm will bring positional versatility. For instance:


Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
or
Bennett - Linholm - Jankowski (or keep rotating all three into the center spot)
or
Frolik - Backlund - Lindholm


Good cases can be made for all three lines, and that's valuable. Ferland was solid in all three zones (seriously, I have seen him make a handful of mistakes all season, and he RARELY ever took a minor penalty), but Lindholm is supposedly a very strong defensive player. Will fit in nicely on the Backlund line, allowing for Tkachuk to get a much needed and EARNED shot at a scoring line role. Throw Tkachuk on the top line, or throw him with Bennett and Jankowski to help bring that line up in scoring.


Either way, it allows for some versatility, and that's such an underrated aspect to a player. It is what makes players like Ferland valuable, and why to this day some people still lament over the loss of Byron.


We just have to watch the games and see. By no means did we trade good pieces for pipe-dreams or a hail marry. As I said, 4 strong players got moved. Sometimes players blossom on new teams, sometimes they regress. Until we see it happen, we just don't know, and this trade might have 2 losers, 2 winners, or one of each. Way too early to call, but the return without question brought in two good players.