Feds to pay Aboriginals $500 - $700 million for Non Aboriginal Foster homes

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's also neither here nor there. Even if it was just the forcible abduction of children... "just"... would anyone consider a settlement figure between $35,000 and $50,000 to be excessive for that conduct?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The sad truth is that in 2017, people who live in isolated rural communities have little hope of good jobs and a high standard of living. The path to prosperity for young people today - Native and non-Native - is getting an education and moving to where the jobs are. I honestly can't see how government policy can change what is a basic economic fact of the modern world.

This I can agree with but I still think the government needs to respect land claims. We probably need to establish more methods and resources for indigenous peoples to sustain their cultural ties in modern, urban settings. I'm just not entirely sure what that looks like.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Are you seriously arguing that stealing children from their parents and subjecting them to atrocities was the best course of action?

The vast majority of Native children went to residential schools voluntarily. The adoptions were voluntary too. The government obviously didn't realize the Catholic Church was riddled with abuse. Remember, at the same time this was happening most of the children in Quebec, Ireland, etc. were being taught by Catholic priests and nuns. Authorities were treating Native kids the same way poor, Catholic kids in white countries were treated.

But I'll ask the question again: What would you have done?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

I am not ignorant. Each person is entitled to their opinion.

These things aren't mutually exclusive.

[spuzzum]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The sad truth is that in 2017, people who live in isolated rural communities have little hope of good jobs and a high standard of living. The path to prosperity for young people today - Native and non-Native - is getting an education and moving to where the jobs are. I honestly can't see how government policy can change what is a basic economic fact of the modern world.

People live in isolated or rural areas because they choose to do so. Should they not be farmers or fishermen? If you don't want those professions, move to the city or a populated area. The world is global now. It doesn't take 5 days to travel from High Level to Toronto.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

I am not ignorant. This is a forum board. Each person is entitled to their opinion. Your post reeks of being a socialist and liberal. Let's pay everybody for all their problems since the beginning of human history. I prefer to take the view of the stronger survive and rule. There are winners and losers throughout history. Western civilization has been forged on this concept because of this - world wars, industrial innovation, research & technology, democracy.

Do you not think it's good to live in a kinder world that moves away from killing people or making their lives harder so you can get ahead? Do we need winners and losers? Should we strive to have more winners than losers?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This I can agree with but I still think the government needs to respect land claims. We probably need to establish more methods and resources for indigenous peoples to sustain their cultural ties in modern, urban settings. I'm just not entirely sure what that looks like.

Schools and services? Could it look like this? Perhaps maybe indigenous people have to let go of some of their cultural ties.

Let's compare a native person to an immigrant for this scenario. What if a native person were treated like an immigrant (i know it's weird but hear me out). An immigrant comes to Canada and they get a PR Card and SIN. With this PR Card they get services that even us Canadian Citizens don't get. Like free english classes (LINC). Free training and employment services like CIWA and CCIS. There are seminars and workshops for them, all FREE to integrate into Canadian life. They do keep some of their culture but it's always a tricky balance.

Now what does a native person get? This is where I probably show my ignorance. Do they get free English classes? Sure they know English on the reservations but it is good enough to compete and work with urbanites? Do they get funded training and employment services specifically targeted to them? Do they get seminars and workshops.

If not, why is the immigrant holding a PR card getting more services than the native person, that's there the money and education should go.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This I can agree with but I still think the government needs to respect land claims. We probably need to establish more methods and resources for indigenous peoples to sustain their cultural ties in modern, urban settings. I'm just not entirely sure what that looks like.

On the education front, I think Canada could actually learn from a program they have in the U.S. where high-achieving college graduates teach in urban schools for a year or two after graduation.

Educate the high-achievers about indigenous culture and lifestyles. Give them the resources to teach in difficult conditions in Native communities. The children benefit from highly motivated teachers. The high-achievers go on to their careers in law, banking, etc. with a prestigious civic work experience under their belts, and a better understanding of the realities of lives in Native communities.

[spuzzum]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do you not think it's good to live in a kinder world that moves away from killing people or making their lives harder so you can get ahead? Do we need winners and losers? Should we strive to have more winners than losers?

I would love an ideal and Utopian society - everyone treated equally, fairly, no hunger, famine, poverty, wars.... The unfortunate truth is that the world is a depressing, scary, and power hungry place. We all need to consider ourselves extremely lucky living in Canada compared to say Syria, Iraq, North Korea. There are endless places like this.

When was the last time Zimbabwe was mentioned in mainstream media or news? The place has been a basket case for two decades and it seems the west has completely forgotten the place exists.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

I would love an ideal and Utopian society - everyone treated equally, fairly, no hunger, famine, poverty, wars.... The unfortunate truth is that the world is a depressing, scary, and power hungry place. We all need to consider ourselves extremely lucky living in Canada compared to say Syria, Iraq, North Korea. There are endless places like this.

When was the last time Zimbabwe was mentioned in mainstream media or news? The place has been a basket case for two decades and it seems the west has completely forgotten the place exists.

Too broad of a stroke to say "the west", European news agencies have lots of Africa coverage. North American media outlets don't have much coverage, as they have way less colonial ties to Africa.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

I would love an ideal and Utopian society - everyone treated equally, fairly, no hunger, famine, poverty, wars.... The unfortunate truth is that the world is a depressing, scary, and power hungry place. We all need to consider ourselves extremely lucky living in Canada compared to say Syria, Iraq, North Korea. There are endless places like this.

When was the last time Zimbabwe was mentioned in mainstream media or news? The place has been a basket case for two decades and it seems the west has completely forgotten the place exists.

So would making up for some of our past screw ups not be a good way to start making the world a better place? We can't exactly go tell other countries how to run their ship if we haven't straightened ours out first.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The vast majority of Native children went to residential schools voluntarily. The adoptions were voluntary too. The government obviously didn't realize the Catholic Church was riddled with abuse. Remember, at the same time this was happening most of the children in Quebec, Ireland, etc. were being taught by Catholic priests and nuns. Authorities were treating Native kids the same way poor, Catholic kids in white countries were treated.

But I'll ask the question again: What would you have done?

Well it's a bit of a broad question because you have to consider the relationship and attitudes the government held towards indigenous people at the time. When you basically regard a group of people as racially inferior savages and give them less rights than the white majority, while simultaneously treating them as a burden/wards of the State, it kind of limits your options. You could maybe start by maybe respecting treaties, treating them as equals, and giving them some level of agency and self-determination before resorting to stealing children.

[spuzzum]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So would making up for some of our past screw ups not be a good way to start making the world a better place? We can't exactly go tell other countries how to run their ship if we haven't straightened ours out first.

I agree. Clean up our own back yard is the way to go, but it unfortunately won't happen.

[Backlunds_socks]

CliffFletcher,

Again, the intentions do not matter it is the consequences that people live with.

Bottom line, the rest of your argument does not need to exist.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

I agree. Clean up our own back yard is the way to go, but it unfortunately won't happen.

I guess I don't see the disconnect here. You are saying we should clean up our own backyard, but that it won't happen. But isn't this, and other settlements and reconciliation an attempt to right past wrongs?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

I didn't see any atrocities mentioned in the article (aside from the kidnapping). Do you have a source for the atrocities?

I thought this settlement was because the children being taken and raised in other homes?

You can read thousands of first hand experiences if you download the Truth and Reconciliation Committee's final report. It is not easy to read what some experienced.

The Mohawk Institute at Brantford, Ontario is a residential school that has been documented as truly horrific. This is what Russ Moses, a resident of the school for 5 years, wrote about the Mohawk Institute.

This isn’t about what people did in the 19th century. This is about what Canada continued to do until only two decades ago. It is not what his forefathers did. It is about what many people who lived through the period did not do…speak up to end the genocide of aboriginal culture. We all share a responsibility to make amends and create a culture which understands the value of aboriginal people, rather than shoving our history under the carpet so that we don’t feel guilty. Most countries and civilizations have a blot in their history. This is Canada’s blot.

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.c.../RussMoses.pdf

And you can look at the recommendations from the TRC as well, I think there were 90+ such recommendations. While I don't necessarily support all of them, I think that most of them have merit.

As for some others who simply say, "get over it already", well, that is more easily said than done. Yes, Canada has apologized. Yes, Canada has offered financial compensation. And yes, we can't live in the past forever. But if we can do more, we should do more. Some of the suggestions from the report certainly merit some consideration.

I have no problem paying for name changes for those who feel it would help heal the past. I have no doubt in my mind that what went on in residential schools was cultural genocide. If they feel they have been robbed of their name which is a part of their culture, then I have no problem assisting them in getting their name back. I can't imagine that it would take a huge bureaucracy to assist in name changes.

I have no problem with us teaching about the history of residential schools. We teach about concentration camps, Rwanda, and so on. Surely our own history merits mention as well. The curriculum could be worked out cooperatively between natives and education boards.

I have no problem with appropriate parenting programs being set up. After all, if you lived most of your formative years in a residential school environment, how do you learn how families function?

I have no problem in demanding apologies from both the Catholic and Anglican churches. I don't care how much good some in these churches might have done. It will never negate the horrors of what some had to experience.

And what I would like to see done, that has not been recommended, is to have the abusers named. I don't care if they are dead or alive. This is not just a black mark on the gov't of the day. It is a huge black mark on each and everyone who abused a child in residential schools in Canada and they should be named and brought to justice.

Any normal human being with any emotions at all would and should have known that what went on in residential schools in Canada was wrong. Shame on them for being accomplices or not speaking up.

I also think we can do a much better job educating our native youth. Maclean's magazine had an excellent article documenting the huge improvement in two native schools in Ontario. Actually, these two schools have benefited from the Paul Martin Aboriginal Education Initiative. I think the approach in these two schools would have merit all across Canada as well.

http://www.macleans.ca/education/the...cores-soaring/

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

On the education front, I think Canada could actually learn from a program they have in the U.S. where high-achieving college graduates teach in urban schools for a year or two after graduation.

Educate the high-achievers about indigenous culture and lifestyles. Give them the resources to teach in difficult conditions in Native communities. The children benefit from highly motivated teachers. The high-achievers go on to their careers in law, banking, etc. with a prestigious civic work experience under their belts, and a better understanding of the realities of lives in Native communities.

There are also groups of young, high-achieving aboriginals who do this kind of work on their own but they get very little if anything in the way of support and resources from the government. I'd like to see more investment in those types of programs that are initiated by aboriginals.

[TheIronMaiden]

For those interested.

http://nctr.ca/reports.php
http://nctr.ca/map.php

The Final Report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada might clear up some misconceptions that you have about the nature and outcome of residential schools.

Also you might want to read through some of the scanned documents available on the TRC website.

[spuzzum]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well it's a bit of a broad question because you have to consider the relationship and attitudes the government held towards indigenous people at the time. When you basically regard a group of people as racially inferior savages and give them less rights than the white majority, while simultaneously treating them as a burden/wards of the State, it kind of limits your options. You could maybe start by maybe respecting treaties, treating them as equals, and giving them some level of agency and self-determination before resorting to stealing children.

I would rescind all land treaties and eliminate the Department of Aboriginal Affairs. Having these agreements and agencies in place keeps treating them as 2nd class citizens or equals. Until any party stops relying on the state to solve their problems, they will never be treated equal. Let's make the transition easy - financially assist every aboriginal family and individual to amalgamate into Canadian society.

[corporatejay]

I understand where cliff is coming from, it wasn't done to be malicious or evil, but the reality is, it was done. There was damage and we should look back and judge our former selves.

Making reparations and admitting mistakes/fault doesn't make the government of the past "evil".