A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Jon we know would still have killed Dany in this situation. Him being a Targaryen made no difference here.



Despite Jon being her nephew, Dany still loved him.



Nothing changed.

Would it have gotten to that point if he wasn’t or didn’t know? Her reaction to him being popular after the long night is probably less pronounced if he poses no lineage threat. Her ok fear it is moment came after he rejected her push to rule together, which was directly due to him knowing the truth. Everything could have been different

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I’m still in shock at how happy the show ended. I never in a million years would have guessed that everything would be wrapped up so neat that the finale featured a comedic scene showing a humorous small council meeting with Bronn.

It feels like we were only 1 or 2 steps away from a full on character by character “where are they now?” Ending complete with sappy music and a text overlay telling us what happened to each character in the subsequent years, as if the show were a coming of age teen movie.

[EldrickOnIce]

Dany absolutely does not go full Targaryen on Kings Landing without revelation of Jon's lineage as threat to her rule.
I don't think this is opinion, I think this is known.

[CaptainCrunch]

How long would have it taken Daeny to go from "We're going to change the world for the better" to "You have no choice"


She could abide by his existence as long as she was on the iron throne, but Daeny seemed to jump on the whole "You betrayed me" bandwagon really easily throughout the run of the show.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I’m still in shock at how happy the show ended. I never in a million years would have guessed that everything would be wrapped up so neat that the finale featured a comedic scene showing a humorous small council meeting with Bronn.

It feels like we were only 1 or 2 steps away from a full on character by character “where are they now?” Ending complete with sappy music and a text overlay telling us what happened to each character in the subsequent years, as if the show were a coming of age teen movie.

I've heard people speculating that the books might end after Jon kills Dany. I think the new king will have to be introduced after that, so it couldn't be that abrupt; however, I'll be pretty surprised if there's a happy ending like the show.
This is 100% speculation, but it would seem a lot more Martin-esque.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by cecil terwilliger

i’m still in shock at how happy the show ended. I never in a million years would have guessed that everything would be wrapped up so neat that the finale featured a comedic scene showing a humorous small council meeting with bronn.

It feels like we were only 1 or 2 steps away from a full on character by character “where are they now?” ending complete with sappy music and a text overlay telling us what happened to each character in the subsequent years, as if the show were a coming of age teen movie.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1130581319593783296

[Fuzz]

I was amused when Danny was talking about "liberating" all these kingdoms, and the parallels to America bringing freedom and democracy to countries by bombing and destroying them.

[nik-]

uhh, ok Noam, lets settle down.

[Matata]

I thought it was a pretty heavy handed metaphor, there's lots of commentaries on our own culture sprinkled throughout GoT.

[GGG]

I do wish John had to choose not to be king.

He continually chose duty over love throughout his life and died once and killed his lover twice.

Him walking out of Castle Black was him throwing off that mantel of duty. However it would have been more powerful if he’d been brought to the council in the dragon pit and refused to be king. Giving the characters Agency in their decisions is much more powerful than others forcing them.

I think the book ends with Bran on the throne and John killing Dany and Jon going north. How they get to that point will be different and better constructed but it’s hard to see Martin allowing Dany or Jon to win in the conventional way.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Dany absolutely does not go full Targaryen on Kings Landing without revelation of Jon's lineage as threat to her rule.
I don't think this is opinion, I think this is known.

So why was Bran so emphatic that Jon needed to know the truth of his lineage knowing this would happen?

And how does destroying King’s landing reduce Jon’s threat? It doesn’t, arguably the twist was introduced to help her go crazy. From a plot standpoint, it was unnecessary as her descent to madness was happening anyway. Even the shows writers broached this when mentioning her reaction to her brothers death. And Tyrion recounted all of her other atrocities.

The story might have been better served ending with the revelation of Jon’s lineage, instead of introducing it is a major turning point and having it mean so little.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

I do wish John had to choose not to be king.

He continually chose duty over love throughout his life and died once and killed his lover twice.

Him walking out of Castle Black was him throwing off that mantel of duty. However it would have been more powerful if he’d been brought to the council in the dragon pit and refused to be king. Giving the characters Agency in their decisions is much more powerful than others forcing them.

I think the book ends with Bran on the throne and John killing Dany and Jon going north. How they get to that point will be different and better constructed but it’s hard to see Martin allowing Dany or Jon to win in the conventional way.

Jon had a huge journey, but for people living outside of the North, he probably wouldn't seem all that important.

Jon would have also been a horrible leader in times of peace. He can lead a battle (well except for when someone does anything that triggers him emotionally), but how could he possibly be expected to make decisions for an empire? For example, how to manage their finances? Jon's greatest triumph was the battle of the bastards, but from the perspective of the non-North houses, the Boltons weren't some great threat. They were a lesser vassal house, that the Lannisters had manipulated.

I can't see the council, of mostly none northerners, entertaining Jon as a leader. His biggest claim to the throne was being a Targaryan, a claim which most of the other houses hadn't recognized since Robert's Rebellion. If he had been appointed to any kind of leadership role, Sansa would have eventually wrestled power away from him. There was an ongoing theme in the show about morality and what actually is the right decision. Jon was led by duty, but there were multiple times when it was explicitly stated that following duty was not always moral. Beyond what happened with Dany, there was also Jaime and the "kingslayer", Tyrion's betrayal of the Lannisters, Olenna's murder of Joffrey, etc...

This was one thing they did quite well in the finale. Jon was never in any position to lead. He was always much better suited for wandering around in the North, and the look on his face as he was going beyond the wall was him realizing that.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So why was Bran so emphatic that Jon needed to know the truth of his lineage knowing this would happen?

And how does destroying King’s landing reduce Jon’s threat? It doesn’t, arguably the twist was introduced to help her go crazy. From a plot standpoint, it was unnecessary as her descent to madness was happening anyway. Even the shows writers broached this when mentioning her reaction to her brothers death. And Tyrion recounted all of her other atrocities.

The story might have been better served ending with the revelation of Jon’s lineage, instead of introducing it is a major turning point and having it mean so little.

Not sure if you are serious?

It changed the way Dany approached everything.
It changed the way Jon approached everything, at least with respect to auntie lovin'.
It changed the way Varys approached everything.
It changed the way Tyrion approached everything.

There is no one else at the head of her army. It fundamentally changed everything for everyone that mattered and completely changed the course of events. If this info is kept quiet, I can't see anything legitimately happening except her ruling the 7 kingdoms.

9ne can argue if Bran was manipulating an outcome or just making sure all the game players had perfect information. This is debatable. I can't see how the rest is.

[Patek23]

Maybe I’m very mistaken but is Bran not essentially immortal barring he physically gets murdered? Maybe I’m misremembering but wasn’t the previous 3-eyed raven over 300 years old. I actually hate that Bran became king it cheapens his character so much. A king on a throne is such a trivial thing compared to the powers he has. He’s supposed to be not concerned with such petty things as his powers grant him a greater purpose.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Not sure if you are serious?

It changed the way Dany approached everything.
It changed the way Jon approached everything, at least with respect to auntie lovin'.
It changed the way Varys approached everything.
It changed the way Tyrion approached everything.

There is no one else at the head of her army. It fundamentally changed everything for everyone that mattered and completely changed the course of events. If this info is kept quiet, I can't see anything legitimately happening except her ruling the 7 kingdoms.

9ne can argue if Bran was manipulating an outcome or just making sure all the game players had perfect information. This is debatable. I can't see how the rest is.

As you point out, it didn’t change anything for Jon except for no longer getting it on with his Aunt. She was still his Queen. If the info is kep quiet, Dany still goes crazy and Jon does the right thing. As he has always done.

Tyrion’s reaction to her behavior has nothing to do with Jon’s lineage but 100% with her murdering civilians.

It seems like you are saying this information is what set Dany off. It may have contributed, but much more of a minor factor. I would be more convinced if Jon was the target of her rage at some point.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

Maybe I’m very mistaken but is Bran not essentially immortal barring he physically gets murdered? Maybe I’m misremembering but wasn’t the previous 3-eyed raven over 300 years old.

Wasn't the previous three-eyed raven embedded in a tree or something? I thought that was what kept him alive for so long.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

Maybe I’m very mistaken but is Bran not essentially immortal barring he physically gets murdered? Maybe I’m misremembering but wasn’t the previous 3-eyed raven over 300 years old. I actually hate that Bran became king it cheapens his character so much. A king on a throne is such a trivial thing compared to the powers he has. He’s supposed to be not concerned with such petty things as his powers grant him a greater purpose.

This is another problem I had with Bran becoming King, all of what you said is so true and what was taken to be understood about his character. He shot down, numerous times, that he would want or even be eligible to be Lord of Winterfell despite being the only son of Ned Stark. Suddenly that all goes out with window to become King of everything? So much so that he gives the cocky answer of "That's why I came down here son" when Tyrion nominates him to be King. I'd have rather had anyone from the meeting become the Monarch, and that includes Ulitmate Mommy's Boy Robyn Arryn.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

This is another problem I had with Bran becoming King, all of what you said is so true and what was taken to be understood about his character. He shot down, numerous times, that he would want or even be eligible to be Lord of Winterfell despite being the only son of Ned Stark. Suddenly that all goes out with window to become King of everything? So much so that he gives the cocky answer of "That's why I came down here son" when Tyrion nominates him to be King. I'd have rather had anyone from the meeting become the Monarch, and that includes Ulitmate Mommy's Boy Robyn Arryn.

If he knew what the future held, why would he accept lordship of Winterfell? He knew Stansa would do well there, and kingship was coming for him. Why hold him to his words? I don't see any contradiction here.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

As you point out, it didn’t change anything for Jon except for no longer getting it on with his Aunt. She was still his Queen. If the info is kep quiet, Dany still goes crazy and Jon does the right thing. As he has always done.

Tyrion’s reaction to her behavior has nothing to do with Jon’s lineage but 100% with her murdering civilians.

It seems like you are saying this information is what set Dany off. It may have contributed, but much more of a minor factor. I would be more convinced if Jon was the target of her rage at some point.

Fair enough.
But do not agree.

[Alpha_Q]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Count me among the ... terrible.

I don't think John had the throne "snatched away from him." He didn't want the throne and expressed that often. I'm not sure how you could watch the show and come to that conclusion, actually. All of us get emotionally connected to our favorite characters and want what's best for them, but us wanting Jon on the throne does not mean Jon wanted the throne and therefore it wasn't snatched from him. Jon got exactly what he wanted.

As well, do people honestly feel Jon was truly banished? They may have used that term but being sentenced to the Night's Watch obviously wasn't meant to be taken too literally, by either Jon, or capital A Audience. Bran passed the sentence and the Unsullied accepted it as it was an order from the new king. Grey Worm could either accept that and sail for Naath, which is something he wanted to do on an emotional level, or he could resist and continue to fight. Either decision has a certain logic. I am admittedly a little surprised and feel that it was a rather weak moment in the plot that Jon was imprisoned for killing Dany and not killed outright - perhaps the show was smart in not showing us the manner of his arrest.

As for Bran, I initially found his character frustrating, especially during the battle of Winterfell, where he did, essentially, nothing. I was hoping he would somehow distract the Night King or play a more active role in his death, but instead he wargs his way into the crows and takes a little mental vacation. But the final episode revealed, through the line "Why do you think I came all this way?" that Bran knew all along that the Night King would be killed, and who would be killed along with him, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about those events. He would become King, and knew the details of every moment that would put him there. He knew what Sam would discover, knew that Jon would reveal his secret, knew it all...

No, Bran did not manipulate the events, he did not WIN the game of thrones, he is just as much a cog as anyone. But his lack of a response to all the events around him - including the death of Hodor, means he knew everything about his future as early as that moment, and probably earlier.

Also, don't get upset about how I used the ellipsis your post. Couldn't resist .