It's also such a weird attitude. IMO, even if they don't support LGBTQ rights, they don't deserve to have their homes destroyed and their children murdered. Maybe that's just me though.
Theres people within our own country and province who don't support LGBTQ rights. what a weird take to have is right.
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It's also such a weird attitude. IMO, even if they don't support LGBTQ rights, they don't deserve to have their homes destroyed and their children murdered. Maybe that's just me though.
Empathy is easily lost on some, and then quickly weaponized as if they can’t comprehend how a human can care for another human.
Empathy is easily lost on some, and then quickly weaponized as if they can’t comprehend how a human can care for another human.
Also kind of ironic that one of the biggest whiners on this board about free speech and cancel culture seems to be okay with what's happening to Palestinians partly because they hold different values than he does.
Theres people within our own country and province who don't support LGBTQ rights. what a weird take to have is right.
Some Canadians might not support it but all or most levels of government in Canada support and respect LGBTQ rights. Those U of Victoria students can protest under free speech most issues without repercussion in Canada. In Israel they can as well. Other Middle East countries aren't the same.
Though I agree that just because you are for one issue doesn't mean that makes you a hypocrite of another issue.
Theres people within our own country and province who don't support LGBTQ rights. what a weird take to have is right.
It's also highly dependent on the culture you live in. Go back 30 years and ask random people off the street in Calgary if they support LGBTQ rights, the stats might be very similar to those of Gaza today.
Heck even 5 or 10 years ago it might have been ok to call a coworker a "homo" for wearing a pink tie or saying that a crappy situation is "gay".
Also kind of ironic that one of the biggest whiners on this board about free speech and cancel culture seems to be okay with what's happening to Palestinians partly because they hold different values than he does.
I am not okay with what happens to innocents, to civilians that simply want to live their lives in peace. That said, do you have a solution? What should be a response to rocket fire on a populated area inside a country? Would giving Hamas everything they ask for make them give up the fight or would it make them ask for even more just so they stay relevant?
This latest bout began when Israel began to expel Palestinians from a neighbourhood in Jerusalem, correct? Can an argument be made that the latest violence between Israel and Hamas began when Israel decided it needed more lebensraum?
I am not okay with what happens to innocents, to civilians that simply want to live their lives in peace. That said, do you have a solution? What should be a response to rocket fire on a populated area inside a country? Would giving Hamas everything they ask for make them give up the fight or would it make them ask for even more just so they stay relevant?
As terrible as Hamas is, they're a symptom of the situation the Palestinians are in. They aren't the problem, Israel's racist policies are. If those policies were to end tomorrow and the Palestinians were given rights to live on their land with dignity, then Hamas would no longer have a reason to exist.
This latest bout began when Israel began to expel Palestinians from a neighbourhood in Jerusalem, correct? Can an argument be made that the latest violence between Israel and Hamas began when Israel decided it needed more lebensraum?
From my understanding the latest bout began for two reasons. One is COVID and the Israeli side did not allow access to the holy places during Ramadan to Palestinians without a vaccine. The second was the closure of such places after the partial destruction of those places by vandals. As far as I know Hamas gave Israel an ultimatum to open those places and allow access to them. When the time ran out they began firing.
This latest bout began when Israel began to expel Palestinians from a neighbourhood in Jerusalem, correct? Can an argument be made that the latest violence between Israel and Hamas began when Israel decided it needed more lebensraum?
Firstly, the application of terms applied to the Nazis is very offensive when describing a conflict that involves Jews.
Secondly, even the eviction is far more complex than you are letting on. Jews are attempting to evict Arabs from a single property they legally own. The Arabs stopped paying rent decades ago. The history of the property is that it was legally owned by Jews. When Jordan invaded, in 1949, they gave the forcibly removed the Jewish owners, and gave the property to Jordanian landlords. The Jordanians then moved Arabs onto the property and had them pay rent to the Jordanian landlords. When Israel gained control of the land in 1967 they reinstated legal title to the Jews, and allowed the Arabs to remain as long as they paid rent, which they stopped doing. There's been a court case ongoing since, which has involved offers by the Israeli government to compensate the current Arab occupants.
But I guess instead of looking at the actual facts it's easier just to try and shout down the other side with a bunch of ignorant name calling.
Also kind of ironic that one of the biggest whiners on this board about free speech and cancel culture seems to be okay with what's happening to Palestinians partly because they hold different values than he does.
What makes you think I’m okay with Palestinian civilians being killed? But let’s not pretend anti-semitism doesn’t have a long heritage on the far left (it’s one of the things the far left and far right have in common). As I noted earlier, a recent investigation into the UK’s Labour Party uncovered systemic antisemitism.
Which doesn’t mean all or even most criticism of Israel from the left is rooted in anti-semitism. However, when that criticism is so one-sided and out of proportion to other global conflicts, you have to be pretty naive to discount it.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
As terrible as Hamas is, they're a symptom of the situation the Palestinians are in. They aren't the problem, Israel's racist policies are. If those policies were to end tomorrow and the Palestinians were given rights to live on their land with dignity, then Hamas would no longer have a reason to exist.
You see I agree that the situation in Gaza is terrible. I also know that Israel allows the transfer of funds, actual suitcases of money are being shipped to Gaza via trucks. Those trucks are paid for by Qatar. Now the problem is that the majority of the funds and resources in Gaza go into arming Hamas. Now as for who owns which land. The average Palestinian Joe would not get those lands, they would go into the governments hands. It would take a lot more than land for Palestinians to live in dignity. Their fingers would still be pointed to Israel. Am I sure of that? no, but you also can't say for a fact that it will just stop the hatred.
I just find it very convenient that people think that Hamas will just give up power. It has both a political and a military branch. It controls large chunks of infrastructure etc. There is no way Hamas would just cease to exist no matter how peachy things are. Anyways, as I was asking what should be an appropriate response to rocket fire on civilian population?
As terrible as Hamas is, they're a symptom of the situation the Palestinians are in. They aren't the problem, Israel's racist policies are. If those policies were to end tomorrow and the Palestinians were given rights to live on their land with dignity, then Hamas would no longer have a reason to exist.
The minute you feel the need to type any sort of defense of Hamas, you should consider taking a break from the internet.
They are part of the problem. For you to simply dismiss them by saying that Israel is their own worse enemy, is disgraceful. Hamas is helping create chaos to ensure they keep ruling. They will fight to the death to keep ruling, even if the most peace loving leader of Israel came to power
Mitigating your post by saying "as terrible as Hamas is" doesn't help.
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-- Two Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli soldiers in two separate incidents in the West Bank, medics said.
-- A Hamas official said that Hamas' conditions for any ceasefire with Israel are that Israel "completely stops violations against the Al-Aqsa Mosque in East Jerusalem and the Palestinian neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah in Jerusalem."
May 11:
-- More than five people in central and southern Israel were killed in a Gaza rocket attack, and at least 24 people, including nine children, were killed in the Gaza Strip as Israel launched new airstrikes against the enclave, according to Israeli authorities and the Hamas-run health ministry.
-- Israeli military chief Aviv Kochavi decided to extend Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip "with no time limit" amid the tensions.
-- Barrages of rockets from Gaza hit Israel's Tel Aviv at night, Israeli security officials said.
-- Guterres voiced grave concern over the serious escalations in the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel, including the latest escalation in Gaza, which added to the heightened tensions and violence in occupied East Jerusalem, said his spokesman.
May 10:
-- Israeli tanks struck military posts of Hamas early morning in response to rockets fired from Gaza into Israel, and hundreds of Palestinians were injured in clashes with Israeli police in East Jerusalem, Palestinian sources and Israeli army said.
-- Israel said it has shut down the Erez Crossing, the only pedestrian passage between the Gaza Strip and Israel, after Gaza militants fired more rockets.
-- Israel carried out airstrikes in the Gaza Strip, killing at least 20 people. Rocket fire from the Palestinian enclave continued through the night.
May 9:
-- At least 10 Palestinians were injured in fresh clashes at the Al-Aqsa Mosque Compound after the end of the morning prayer early Sunday, the Palestinian Red Crescent said.
-- Militants in the Gaza Strip fired two rockets at southern Israel at night, said Israeli military.
May 8:
-- Overnight on Saturday, at least 90 Palestinians were wounded in clashes with Israeli police near the Old City's Damascus Gate and the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood, both located in East Jerusalem, according to a Red Crescent statement.
May 7:
-- A total of 205 Palestinians and 17 Israeli police officers were injured in clashes at the Al-Aqsa Mosque Compound on Friday night, following a ruling that forced Palestinians to leave their homes on land claimed by Jewish settlers.
-- Elsewhere in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Israeli troops shot dead two Palestinians and injured a third after the three opened fire on a military base in the West Bank.
-- The Israeli military boosted its forces in the West Bank with additional combat troops and added anti-rocket Iron Dome batteries in the area near Gaza
As a medic, I am shocked. The internationally-acclaimed COVID-19 vaccination success of Israel has a dark side, the consequences of which are being felt cruelly in the West Bank territory of Palestine where I work, and in the blockaded Gaza Strip where my Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) colleagues work.
Israel has managed to vaccinate nearly 4.2 million people with a first dose – that’s around 50 per cent of the population – and 2.8 million people with the full two doses – that’s more than 30 per cent of the population.
Meanwhile, only several thousand doses are available in the Palestinian West Bank, and a delivery of 20,000 reported to have arrived last weekend in Gaza scarcely scratches at the surface of the needs. At a generous maximum, assuming that the 35,000 reported Sputnik and Moderna vaccines are all available, that would be around 0.8 percent of the Palestinian population.
You are over 60 times more likely to have a vaccination in Israel than in Palestine.
MATTHIAS KENNES, MSF MEDICAL ADVISER PALESTINE
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I came to Hebron with an MSF team specifically to help with the COVID-19 response. In December last year, when the second wave hit the West Bank, the Dura hospital where we are supporting medical assistance was full of COVID-19 patients. We had mostly elderly people, many with underlying conditions such as diabetes or other chronic diseases. Patients died. Sick COVID-19 patients have died in hospitals around the world, but these patients died on my watch, and that pains me.
In eight of the 11 West Bank governorates, COVID-19 case numbers are on the rise again. In Hebron, this increase has been slow and steady for the past four weeks. I do not want to see any more patients dying of hypoxia. The vaccine is my hope to avoid this. It is also a source of despair.
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A few kilometres away in Israel, all the vulnerable groups have been vaccinated and they are planning to move onto vaccinating healthy adults and youths, who are less vulnerable, especially to severe complications.
Here in the West Bank, there are around 10,000 doses, which is enough for 5,000 people to be vaccinated. In the hospital where I work, staff have been offered the vaccine, but the available doses do not come close to covering the healthcare workers, let alone the elderly and people with medical conditions that make them susceptible to dying of COVID-19.
If asked why vulnerable people cannot be vaccinated in Palestine, I do not know how to answer. It is inexplicable and unbelievable. Worse than that – it is unjust and cruel.
Of course a terrorist organization is going to set up shops next to vulnerable targets to avoid getting blown to pieces.
Remember when the USA sent cruise missiles to blow up the entire block Osama Bin Laden was on? Neither do I.
The problem is that if Israel gave the UN, or NATO or whomever the option to get troops into Gaza to deal with a terrorist organization... no one would. Because once your own people soldiers start dying its bad press. No one wants to deal with a terrorist organization. Israel doesn't want to put its soldiers in danger, because if they start ground operation they will be entering urban warfare with the other side having explosives in houses and a network of tunnels to maneuver around your forces. In addition, you can't tell civilians form terrorists. You can only tell once they start shooting at you.
The bottom line is that there is no good solution. Israel withdrew its forces from Gaza in the hope that it would stop violence. It didn't and I don't see a way to get rid of Hamas. I also don't see a way for innocents to not get in the crossfire.
It seems pretty clear that israel is trying to kill off the Palestinians. Not all at once, that would turn the world opinion against them but slowly. A slow genocide.
Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 05-18-2021 at 01:12 PM.
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I do find it a tad ironic that that far left are feverish Palestine supporters. The UVIC LGBT++ alliance organized a Pro Palestine event on campus, its as if this club doesn't realize that Hamas and their electorate would punish their existence with death.
This is not ironic, it is irrelevant. I don't need to have someone support LGBTQ people to feel they or their children do not deserve death. Even someone who would kill me is not someone who deserves death. Irony? No. This issue is a human rights issue and one completely separate from gay rights. Was I profoundly upset hearing about a recent, highly publicized honour killing of a gay man in Iran? I was. Was I profoundly upset about hearing of and seeing pictures of the dead children living in a place comparatively unfriendly (to say it lightly) towards LGBTQ people? I was.
Why?
Because everyone deserves equal human rights. Everyone deserves not to be killed for who they are, or where/how they were born. They may be "the enemy" when it comes to equal human rights on one issue, but they are our friends on this issue. And a bunch of people celebrating their death because they disagree with them on a particular issue is never going to make them see the world any differently on that issue.
Perhaps the problem is the people false claiming irony, alluding to the idea that for some reason we should be ok with the deaths of children and many other innocent people because they don't agree with us. Is that a right wing thing? Don't know. But the far right politicians in Israel certainly seem happy to kill, and people who support these actions are disgusting.
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
It’s the my enemy’s enemy is my friend principle taken to absurd extremes. If it were all about children being killed, you would see students unions marching over the 2,000 civilians massacred in Ethiopia over the last year.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
Who is the enemy you perceive?
Why comment on an issue you don't understand? Who are you to say "what it is"? Not to interrupt another myopic meandering and limp shot at the spectre of "the far left," but these limping drivebys at some perceived hypocrisy of "the left" become boring over time. Why bother to continue to contribute in a way that says "I do not understand this side of things and do not wish to." Learn something, think. Try. This is just another bad take and I truly do not understand why someone as smart as yourself never seems bothered to think critically instead of resorting to this nonsense.
There are aggressors and victims. The Israeli government and Hamas are aggressors. The Israeli and Palestinians are the victims. Centrists, "Liberals," and the right sit around and support one of the aggressors en masse while attempting to erase the largest section of victims. The "far left" is standing up for those victims since others don't care to. It's not the enemy of an enemy, it's innocent people that are being ignored and erased.
Palestinian people do not need to be perfect, or even "morally right" by western standards to deserve to be defended.
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Originally Posted by gvitaly
I think your logic is slightly off because Hamas targets population. The Israeli army targets Hamas. That is one of the reasons Hamas builds its infrastructure next to schools, next to kindergartens, next to mosques, under the hospitals...
Hamas actively uses the population as a shield. The Israeli government doesn't.
In fact, if Israel completely disregarded civilian casualties then I believe they would have a much easier time fighting against the Hamas.
The problem with this line of thinking is that they do target civilians. They could choose not to. They do bomb schools, hospitals, shelters, media buildings, childcare centers, homes. They could choose not to. They have an overwhelming military advantage. Their power outranks Hamas by an insane degree. It doesn't make it ok that Hamas hides rockets under schools, but Israel has a choice.
They know Hamas is using civilians as shields. They still target the shield. Let's not pretend Israel is not targeting innocent people. They are, with the end goal of striking Hamas. They are perfectly happy to kill 100 innocent Palestinians if it means they kill 10 Hamas.
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