Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Sliver

IDK. I'm not in favour of a piecemeal approach to reconciliation. Gestures here and there aren't going to help. Is there anything we can do as non-Indigenous Canadians to reconcile the past and move forward with the majority of First Nations in a way that FN people generally agree is reasonable?

So we cancel Canada Day, is everyone happy now? Of course not.

We acknowledge the land we occupy before school assemblies and office tower meetings, is that enough? No, and it shouldn't be.

I need to see a road map that we can all agree to that says if we do X, Y and Z we'll have paid our dues, we will be forgiven, and we can move forward and start healing from the shame. I don't want my grandkids still atoning for this. I'd like to take care of it now, so just need to know what to do. I'm not behind token gestures for the rest of my life based on what the Twittersphere says we need to be doing. This'll get ridiculous and we'll all end up bitter if that's what we do.

I mostly agree with where you're going here, but I think saying we won't do anything until we have a plan to fix this in 50 years means nothing will ever happen.

In my opinion, the most important part is continual steps that are made with intended positive outcomes. Some may fail, that's ok, as long as everyone is trying and with good intent, progress will be made.

No one knows how to fix this, so we can't go in thinking that's the bar. We just need continual progress. Leave the world better than you found it kind of thing.

The awareness stuff is pretty dangerous IMO. It makes people feel like they are doing something without actually doing anything.

School renaming will teach one group of kids a lesson. Make it longer. Put up a plaque by the old sign, immortalize the lessons learned and the painful history so it doesn't happen again.

Instead of burning down churches or restoring burned down churches, turn them into education sites or move them to education sites. March the kids through some relevant pieces of history. A fantastic example already exists with how the holocaust is immortalized.

https://ssir.org/articles/entry/stop...reness_already

Before exploring the most effective ways to create awareness, it’s important to understand the ineffective and even harmful effects that awareness can have. When done wrong, an awareness campaign carries four specific risks: it might lead to no action; It might reach the wrong audience; it might create harm; and it could generate a backlash. We will examine each of these risks in turn.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Good thing society does not have to choose to do one or the other, regardless if it often positions it as a choice.

I'm confused slightly by how confused your position seems to be on this. Let me see if I have this correct:

- Collective atonement is a Judeo-Christian value
- Judeo-Christian values are at the root of Western morality
- Collective atonement is not morally good
- But, collective atonement is morally good in the religious sense

Isn't everything that is morally good, morally good in the religious sense if religion is at the root of our morality?

On the other hand, isn't the suggestion that something morally good (in a religious sense) serves only to prove the moral virtue of the person making the expression, a dismissal of Judeo-Christian values? Wouldn't it be strange to defend religion and it's importance to people if we agreed even the best parts of it were ultimately a self-serving way to prove the moral goodness of the follower?

It seems that if we agree that things good in the religious sense and not a utilitarian sense are less important or worthwhile, then the purpose of religion is questionable, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to defend it. Unless of course "good in the religious sense" is actually worth defending.

To Religion! The Cause of, and Solution to, All Life’s Problems!

[transplant99]

Yet another church suffering an arson attack, this one in Morinville outside of Edmonton.

Looks like this one is completely gutted.

Its really odd how media is largely ignoring this stuff.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yet another church suffering an arson attack, this one in Morinville outside of Edmonton.

Looks like this one is completely gutted.

Its really odd how media is largely ignoring this stuff.

Global:

https://globalnews.ca/news/7992239/m...jean-baptiste/

CTV:

https://globalnews.ca/news/7992239/m...jean-baptiste/

CBC:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...fire-1.6085688

[Mr.Coffee]

About to come out (may have already but have a friend highly connected to CBC so not sure this is public yet) saying another unmarked grave of 182 kids at the Ktunaxa First Nation near Cranbrook / Fernie has been found at a residential school.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Global:

https://globalnews.ca/news/7992239/m...jean-baptiste/

CTV:

https://globalnews.ca/news/7992239/m...jean-baptiste/

CBC:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...fire-1.6085688

Yes...now that the 7th different one has been torched.

Im more taking nationally, though that will start changing.

It will become a bigger story now, but the fact its been 2 weeks worth is concerning. I think the bigger thing to find out is if these are coordinated attacks or just a bunch of lone wolves copycatting each other.

The worst part of these though, beyond the danger to 1st responders, is that its the First Nation people who are losing their places of worship/solitude. I mean, who do the arsonists think they are actually hurting here?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

About to come out (may have already but have a friend highly connected to CBC so not sure this is public yet) saying another unmarked grave of 182 kids at the Ktunaxa First Nation near Cranbrook / Fernie has been found at a residential school.

Sigh.

I think this will be common news fodder for a long while moving forward.

Just reprehensible and really hard to wrap ones head around.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yes...now that the 7th different one has been torched.

Im more taking nationally, though that will start changing.

It will become a bigger story now, but the fact its been 2 weeks worth is concerning. I think the bigger thing to find out is if these are coordinated attacks or just a bunch of lone wolves copycatting each other.

The worst part of these though, beyond the danger to 1st responders, is that its the First Nation people who are losing their places of worship/solitude. I mean, who do the arsonists think they are actually hurting here?

This is the point. The arsonists don't want them to worship there anymore. They were duped into going to church to begin with. People want to get rid of Catholicism period.


When it was announced that Bishop Grandin HS was changing it's name, what was the most popular response/question? Why do we still have Catholic schools at all? Abolish them.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sigh.

I think this will be common news fodder for a long while moving forward.

Just reprehensible and really hard to wrap ones head around.

It shouldn't be that hard to wrap your head around the motive.

[Nyah]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1410230702356893701

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

This is the point. The arsonists don't want them to worship there anymore. They were duped into going to church to begin with. People want to get rid of Catholicism period.


When it was announced that Bishop Grandin HS was changing it's name, what was the most popular response/question? Why do we still have Catholic schools at all? Abolish them.

Well that is a dubious goal at best. Also, what people?

There are over 1 billion catholics worldwide. Trudeau is a semi-devout Catholic.

This country provides rights to worship as you wish as stated in the charter.

Do the indiginous not get the same rights and protection? Which i think would include not having your place of worship razed to the ground by criminal behaviour.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It shouldn't be that hard to wrap your head around the motive.

The motive for killing children?

Sorry dude, yeah i have trouble figuring that one out

Thats why my first thought when this thing broke was that a lot of them died of the spanish flu/TB/any of the other pandemic reasons the last 100+ years. In that case burying them where they died made sense even though the unmarked graves and lack of records for it was unacceptable and in fact criminal.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The motive for killing children?

Sorry dude, yeah i have trouble figuring that one out

Thats why my first thought when this thing broke was that a lot of them died of the spanish flu/TB/any of the other pandemic reasons the last 100+ years. In that case burying them where they died made sense even though the unmarked graves and lack of records for it was unacceptable and in fact criminal.

Oh crap, so sorry, dude. I completely misread the post I quoted. I thought you were questioning the motive of the arsonists.

Apologies.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The motive for killing children?

Sorry dude, yeah i have trouble figuring that one out

Thats why my first thought when this thing broke was that a lot of them died of the spanish flu/TB/any of the other pandemic reasons the last 100+ years. In that case burying them where they died made sense even though the unmarked graves and lack of records for it was unacceptable and in fact criminal.

On the other hand, I don't struggle at all to see how this happened.

I have my doubts that children were being systematically murdered. At least on a large scale.

In all likelihood, most deaths were the result of negligence. Disease, poor health, malnourishment, unsafe living conditions and, yes, some due to outright physical abuse from the caretakers at the schools. However, I honestly doubt that was the leading cause of death.

The fact they are buried in unmarked graves is equally unsurprising. If you're willing to treat a child like a meaningless savage whose life doesn't count for much, willing to stuff them into cramped, dirty, diseased living conditions with no access to health care or medicine, you're probably not going to show a lot of respect when it comes time to bury them when they've succumbed to the rampant disease.

I'd also venture a guess that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, unmarked graves were quite a bit more common than they are today.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

On the other hand, I don't struggle at all to see how this happened.

I have my doubts that children were being systematically murdered. At least on a large scale.

In all likelihood, most deaths were the result of negligence. Disease, poor health, malnourishment, unsafe living conditions and, yes, some due to outright physical abuse from the caretakers at the schools. However, I honestly doubt that was the leading cause of death.

The fact they are buried in unmarked graves is equally unsurprising. If you're willing to treat a child like a meaningless savage whose life doesn't count for much, willing to stuff them into cramped, dirty, diseased living conditions with no access to health care or medicine, you're probably not going to show a lot of respect when it comes time to bury them when they've succumbed to the rampant disease.

I'd also venture a guess that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, unmarked graves were quite a bit more common than they are today.

That was an incredibly sad post to read. It's so shameful how these children and their families were treated by the ruling class of this country.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Sliver

IDK. I'm not in favour of a piecemeal approach to reconciliation. Gestures here and there aren't going to help. Is there anything we can do as non-Indigenous Canadians to reconcile the past and move forward with the majority of First Nations in a way that FN people generally agree is reasonable?

So we cancel Canada Day, is everyone happy now? Of course not.

We acknowledge the land we occupy before school assemblies and office tower meetings, is that enough? No, and it shouldn't be.

I need to see a road map that we can all agree to that says if we do X, Y and Z we'll have paid our dues, we will be forgiven, and we can move forward and start healing from the shame. I don't want my grandkids still atoning for this. I'd like to take care of it now, so just need to know what to do. I'm not behind token gestures for the rest of my life based on what the Twittersphere says we need to be doing. This'll get ridiculous and we'll all end up bitter if that's what we do.

Isn't this the truth and reconciliation commissions call to actions? We've got a long way to go to accomplish them all - https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/long...yond-94?&cta=1

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

About to come out (may have already but have a friend highly connected to CBC so not sure this is public yet) saying another unmarked grave of 182 kids at the Ktunaxa First Nation near Cranbrook / Fernie has been found at a residential school.

The part that has me confused is how the media has not connected the dots back to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In 2015 (I believe), the TRC came out with exhaustive reports on the situation regarding cemeteries and gravesites on or near residential school sites. This document identifies all the residential school cemeteries, some used only by the school, some used by the school and associated church and community. It discussed which ones are still maintained through different organizations, which have fallen into disrepair, and those that have been lost over time to nature and the elements.

Regardless, we know that they are there and we know why they are there, thanks to this painstaking work performed by the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation. Part of their summary states: "Over about 140 years of operation at over 150 Indian Residential School locations, TRC research indicates that at least 3,213 children are reported to have died. This is a conservative estimate in light of the sporadic record keeping and poor document survival, and the early state of research into a vast (and still growing) archive. Most of these children died far from home, and often without their families being adequately informed of the circumstances of death or the place of burial."

The resulting Calls to Action document (2015) outlines many proposed actions to be taken by numerous parties to "redress the legacy of residential schools and advance the process of Canadian reconciliation." This section address very specifically what is recommended for residential school cemeteries:

"Missing Children and Burial Information
71. We call upon all chief coroners and provincial vital statistics agencies that have not provided to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada their records on the deaths of Aboriginal children in the care of residential school authorities to make these
documents available to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation.

72. We call upon the federal government to allocate sufficient resources to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation to allow it to develop and maintain the National Residential School Student Death Register established by the Truth and Reconciliation
Commission of Canada.

73. We call upon the federal government to work with churches, Aboriginal communities, and former residential school students to establish and maintain an online registry of residential school cemeteries, including, where possible, plot maps showing the location of deceased residential school children.

74. We call upon the federal government to work with the churches and Aboriginal community leaders to inform the families of children who died at residential schools of the child’s burial location, and to respond to families’ wishes for appropriate commemoration ceremonies and markers, and reburial in home communities where
requested.

75. We call upon the federal government to work with provincial, territorial, and municipal governments, churches, Aboriginal communities, former residential school students, and current landowners to develop and implement strategies and procedures for the ongoing identification, documentation, maintenance, commemoration, and protection of residential school cemeteries or other sites at which residential school children were buried. This is to include the provision of appropriate memorial ceremonies and commemorative markers to honour the deceased children.

76. We call upon the parties engaged in the work of documenting, maintaining, commemorating, and protecting residential school cemeteries to adopt strategies in accordance with the following principles:
i. The Aboriginal community most affected shall lead the development of such strategies.
ii. Information shall be sought from residential school Survivors and other Knowledge Keepers in the development of such strategies.
iii. Aboriginal protocols shall be respected before any potentially invasive technical inspection and investigation of a cemetery site."

I would also like to think that these discoveries are a result of following through on these actions, as the reports also discuss the various approaches to addressing those sites that have been lost over time, including the use of GPR. Also from the 2015 report: "Cemetery mapping can also involve near-surface geophysical techniques that include Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR), electrical resistivity or conductivity, and magnetic gradiometer surveys."

This information is readily available and yet not connected to these stories. The reality is that we SHOULD be informed and we SHOULD already know about the terrible situation of child mortality at residential schools. We SHOULD know that many of these facilities have changed hands a number of times or vanished altogether and that it is no simple task to stitch the past back together. We SHOULD know that this is not a surprise.

Having said that, the general public is not informed, but is surprised and shocked. Overall, this is not a bad thing as it helps to provide a singular focus on the above recommendations and a better chance to achieve their goals - reconciliation. The unfortunate side effect to the mix of ignorance and shock is the pendulum swinging to the other extreme where it is no longer "reconciliation" being sought, but revenge. And this is where I would loop back to the my first thought: context. The media is not injecting the context into these stories and leaving us to draw our own.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Well that is a dubious goal at best. Also, what people?

There are over 1 billion catholics worldwide. Trudeau is a semi-devout Catholic.

This country provides rights to worship as you wish as stated in the charter.

Do the indiginous not get the same rights and protection? Which i think would include not having your place of worship razed to the ground by criminal behaviour.

What people? The arsonists!
And there's a big push to end Catholic School Funding. Only Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan still do this, 100% funding.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by zuluking

And this is where I would loop back to the my first thought: context. The media is not injecting the context into these stories and leaving us to draw our own.

The media handling has been poor. There’s a temptation with emotional issues like this to lean into the emotion and neglect the kind of details you outlined in your post. But the more serious an issue, the more we need facts, context, etc. to inform our actions going forward.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Well that is a dubious goal at best. Also, what people?

There are over 1 billion catholics worldwide. Trudeau is a semi-devout Catholic.

This country provides rights to worship as you wish as stated in the charter.

Do the indiginous not get the same rights and protection? Which i think would include not having your place of worship razed to the ground by criminal behaviour.

Perhaps if the Catholic Church apologized and took ownership for their actions of the past, these retaliatory acts may have been prevented.

The other churches involved offered apologies. The catholic church's indifference certainly hasn't helped anything.