American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by La Flames Fan

Republicans and Joe Manchin.

While this is true, i don't know if a single payer healthcare plan passes within the Democrats. It would be a debate for sure.

[Nyah]

Nm. Need to look into further.]

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

or their lifestyle

hardly proof of tens of millions of people dying

The US and Canada or the UK are not vastly different in lifestyle and yet yanks die 4 years younger than us on average, so yes tens of millions, for profit healthcare is taking a horrific toll on US health and also costing them vastly more than any other country, it really is the dumbest system in the world

[La Flames Fan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

While this is true, i don't know if a single payer healthcare plan passes within the Democrats. It would be a debate for sure.

Sadly, that's probably very true.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

or their lifestyle

hardly proof of tens of millions of people dying

Their lifestyle? I thought it was common knowledge that their healthcare leads to millions of deaths that don't need to be there??

I know America is generally a slight step below in diet, but aren't other developed nations generally worse for alcohol and drug use? Genuine question btw, just something I believe I had read over the years.

Edit: Looks like most credible sources determine it to be 45k deaths a year based on whatever their population was 10 yeats ago.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

or their lifestyle

hardly proof of tens of millions of people dying

That's why I said "public health". There are many components to a good public health system, including education, access to health services, opportunities for physical activity, etc. It's not all about high paid doctors and the latest medical equipment.

[CliffFletcher]

Obesity rates:

Canada 29 per cent

US 36

Diabetes prevalence

Canada 7.6 per cent

US 10.8

Coronary heart disease fatalities (per 100k)

Canada 46

US 79


Pretty significant differences in lifestyles illnesses. And if we can blame it all on the U.S. health care system, is the Russian health care system responsible for a life expectancy 6 years lower than the U.S.?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Obesity rates:

Canada 29 per cent

US 36

Diabetes prevalence

Canada 7.6 per cent

US 10.8

Coronary heart disease fatalities (per 100k)

Canada 46

US 79


Pretty significant differences in lifestyles illnesses. And if we can blame it all on the U.S. health care system, is the Russian health care system responsible for a life expectancy 6 years lower than the U.S.?

Russia spends almost nothing on its health care compared to the west, so I would say yes, the almost bankrupt and non functioning health care system that most Russians cant access probably does have quite a bit to do with their age of mortality

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Russia spends almost nothing on its health care compared to the west, so I would say yes, the almost bankrupt and non functioning health care system that most Russians cant access probably does have quite a bit to do with their age of mortality

You don’t think the extraordinarily high rates of smoking and alcohol consumption play a significant part?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You don’t think the extraordinarily high rates of smoking and alcohol consumption play a significant part?

Public health plays a role in that. All the smoking regulations, ads, taxes, etc have lowered our smoking rates. (no idea what they do in Russia about that)

[Lanny_McDonald]

The American healthcare discussion is such a complex one, because it is not about health outcomes. It is about insurance and access at this point. Only when everyone has both of those can we begin to take on the outcomes challenges. Trying to get past those two concerns is virtually impossible because of the number of well financed lobbies who influence discussions on the issue. It is a catch-22. Until there is a single payer system to remove the power of the lobbyists, the potential for a single payer system is DOA. Without that, health outcomes are irrelevant and it remains driven by the profit motive.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Public health plays a role in that. All the smoking regulations, ads, taxes, etc have lowered our smoking rates. (no idea what they do in Russia about that)

Some. But government isn’t all-powerful, and culture and social norms are not entirely malleable. We like to trundle out attractive and paternalistic solutions, like ‘education’, as though people don’t know smoking, soda, big macs, and booze are bad for you. It would be a nice world if that’s all we had to do to change unhealthy behaviour.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The American healthcare discussion is such a complex one, because it is not about health outcomes. It is about insurance and access at this point. Only when everyone has both of those can we begin to take on the outcomes challenges. Trying to get past those two concerns is virtually impossible because of the number of well financed lobbies who influence discussions on the issue. It is a catch-22. Until there is a single payer system to remove the power of the lobbyists, the potential for a single payer system is DOA. Without that, health outcomes are irrelevant and it remains driven by the profit motive.

I don't see it as complex at all. A small group of people are making money hand over fist at the expense of the population. That small group of people have more influence over government than the population.

You hit the nail on the head with the mention of lobbyists. Needs to be limited in not just Health, but all facets. So many problems could be fixed in the US if (for example) a law was enacted limiting 'donations'. Donating on behalf of another is outlawed. Kill PACs and Super PACs. Stop the constant money grubbing by politicians.

It sounds simple, but that would be a radical shift in American politics. A catch-22 has two poor outcomes. This is more of a 'poor outcome for a few already rich people'.

As an aside, the fact that they can influence so many voters into believing something that is against their best interests, is impressive.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Some. But government isn’t all-powerful, and culture and social norms are not entirely malleable. We like to trundle out attractive and paternalistic solutions, like ‘education’, as though people don’t know smoking, soda, big macs, and booze are bad for you. It would be a nice world if that’s all we had to do to change unhealthy behaviour.

when smokes cost 2 bucks a pack I smoked three packs a day, when they went to 2.50 I quit, when they went to 10 bucks a pack so did everyone else pretty much.

Taxes have killed smoking in Canada, which is good

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I don't see it as complex at all.

It really is, because there are hundreds of insurance products out there, and not many of them offer the same coverage. Hell, Medicare is proposed as the magic bullet, but Medicare doesn't cover half the things you need and Part B is a requirement if you want reasonable insurance. Again, it is very complex as there are so many products, many regulated by the states, and no clear minimum standard to achieve like there is in Canada. The provinces are expected to meet-or-exceed the minimums outlined in the federal standard, but in the US, those minimums are not outlined or would be enforced with any rigor. It's one of those stupid states' rights issues.

[TheIronMaiden]

In a sense Canada was fortunate to develop some form universal healthcare at the onset the exponential growth in health care technology and knowledge. A lot has changed in the last ~50 years.


That said, complex does not equal impossible.

[Harry Lime]

Sorry, you are right. The issue is complex. The solutions tend to be simple. The will is nearly nonexistent.

[GirlySports]

There no will to change now when too much work and interests are involved. Healthcare 50 years ago, okay, it would never be implemented in Canada now, so it's unfair to laugh at the Americans.

Some here will be old enough to remember when Canada went from imperial to metric. Can you imagine if something like that was proposed now? There would be absolutely no will. Heck, even approving Daylight Savings Time is a struggle.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

The will is nearly nonexistent.

Distilled down to five words.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

when smokes cost 2 bucks a pack I smoked three packs a day, when they went to 2.50 I quit, when they went to 10 bucks a pack so did everyone else pretty much.

Taxes have killed smoking in Canada, which is good

You’re missing the part when the country was flooded with black market cigarettes smuggled through Mohawk territory and the government had to roll back taxes.

Changing social norms and behaviours killed smoking. Taxes just gave the shift a boost.

If government just has to pull levers to prod citizens away from unhealthy behaviour, why do we have growing rates of obesity and a plague of overdoses?