Colten Bushie murder trial

[meritmat]

Originally Posted by station

The overall lack of compassion and empathy in this thread toward both the deceased and the First Nations community is stunning to me.

An emotional response to a tragedy and an arguably unjust verdict is identity politics and culture war? Are you guys seriously this callous?

While the actual verdict may have come down to reasonable doubt over Stanley’s story and inconsistent witness testimony, this whole incident is frought with racial undertones and to deny this is to be blind or willfully ignorant.

I think one can look at the evidence presented and logically understand how the jury reached its decision, while also understanding the sadness, disappointment, and anger felt by the victim’s family and the community at large.

Go live beside a reserve and see how quickly your compassion and empathy go out the window, theft and break-ins are very very common. I honesty don't blame the 5 youths. I blame the parents. Teach your kids respect for the law and your fellow man and stop trying to blame the White man for all your problems.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Here's a CBC article with a different point of view from before the verdict was released and before they went 100% racist....

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/s...ewan-1.4505592

Psychological projection perhaps?

[icecube]

Originally Posted by meritmat

Go live beside a reserve and see how quickly your compassion and empathy go out the window, theft and break-ins are very very common. I honesty don't blame the 5 youths. I blame the parents. Teach your kids respect for the law and your fellow man and stop trying to blame the White man for all your problems.

Or... Blame colonization and a hundred plus years of failed racist assimilation policies by the government. Don't kid yourself. You'd be no different if you had all that stacked against you. They don't lack a resiliency gene and aren't inherently lazy. It's harder than you think to pull yourself out of a mess like that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by icecube

Don't kid yourself. You'd be no different if you had all that stacked against you.

You don't expect natives to be better than booze-addled thieves? That's pretty patronizing. What does it say to those - the majority - who aren't?

And justifying crimes committed by individuals today on the basis of historical oppression and suffering is a fraught project. Ever read the history of Poland? Or the Philippines? Poverty, foreign occupation and oppression, horrific abuses for generations and generations. Is someone of Polish or Filipino origin less responsible for their crimes than someone of Danish or Japanese origin?

[icecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You don't expect natives to be better than booze-addled thieves? That's pretty patronizing. What does it say to those - the majority - who aren't?

And justifying crimes committed by individuals today on the basis of historical oppression and suffering is a fraught project. Ever read the history of Poland? Or the Philippines? Poverty, foreign occupation and oppression, horrific abuses for generations and generations. Is someone of Polish or Filipino origin less responsible for their crimes than someone of Danish or Japanese origin?

Don't purposely twist the meaning of my words. You know god damn well what I'm talking about CliffFletcher. You're being purposely obtuse. I believe you're smarter than that. I know personal accountability comes into play but the reason indigenous people generally speaking "are where they are" is because of colonization.

[meritmat]

Originally Posted by icecube

Or... Blame colonization and a hundred plus years of failed racist assimilation policies by the government. Don't kid yourself. You'd be no different if you had all that stacked against you. They don't lack a resiliency gene and aren't inherently lazy. It's harder than you think to pull yourself out of a mess like that.

Its always the blame game, look we pump billions of tax dollars into these reserves and its getting worse not better. A lot of it is the corrupt Chiefs not all but some. I still cant figure out why the Liberal government scrapped the Transparency act that overseas how the money us spent.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by icecube

Psychological projection perhaps?

Yep. I'm guilty. Or, I just find it interesting when every single CBC article tells me in no uncertain terms I'm a racist because I think this may have been a fair trial and then I find one from the same news source that offers a different point of view. If you need 100% compliance to achieve your goal you may be the one projecting.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by David Struch

I keep seeing the word criminals here but was anyone charged with theft?

How would you describe what the people in the s.u.v wrre doing then? Used a gun to try to steal a truck, tried to steal an a.t.v. drunk while driving, had a loaded rifle in the front seat , use of a firearm while intoxicated etc etc...

They admitted to commiting crimes. They are criminals whether they were charged or not. They said so them selves.

I'm actually amazed they were not charged with any crimes. I havent found any sources anyways to that effect.

I hate this has turned into a racial thing and not just some terrible people that started a chaotic chain of events.

This wasn't a case of a unarmed person minding their own bussiness getting gunned down . Theses adults were commiting crimes and causing a danger to the public . Had they just stayed home and had a few drinks there this never happens.

It is a tradgic story but a story they carved out for them selves.

[meritmat]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

How would you describe what the people in the s.u.v wrre doing then? Used a gun to try to steal a truck, tried to steal an a.t.v. drunk while driving, had a loaded rifle in the front seat , use of a firearm while intoxicated etc etc...

They admitted to commiting crimes. They are criminals whether they were charged or not. They said so them selves.

I'm actually amazed they were not charged with any crimes. I havent found any sources anyways to that effect.

I hate this has turned into a racial thing and not just some terrible people that started a chaotic chain of events.

I read some were they were given immunity for there testimony.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by icecube

I know personal accountability comes into play but the reason indigenous people generally speaking "are where they are" is because of colonization.

They're where they are because their culture was destroyed. Their culture was destroyed because that's what happens when more advanced and populous cultures meet less advanced and populous ones. It's the outcome every single time, in every corner of the planet. It requires no malice on the part of the more advanced and populous culture (which isn't to say malice is absent).

I don't look at history through the lens of a Hollywood movie narrative, with heroes, villains, and saviours. There's nothing that could have preserved the native cultures of the Americas, given the enormous disparity in technology between the old world and new, never mind the disease vulnerability that resulted in 90 per cent of the pre-contact population falling prey to smallpox, etc.

The issue is how to move forward. I don't believe the interests of native Canadians are best served by treating them as noble victims and non-native Canadians as malignant oppressors. It's an approach that makes some people feel good about themselves, but accomplishes very little.

The rest of Canada should recognize and meet our treaty obligations. And care for those natives who fall into poverty and social dysfunction, as we care for all Canadians who suffer. But a race-based justice system is a terrible idea.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

How would you describe what the people in the s.u.v wrre doing then? Used a gun to try to steal a truck, tried to steal an a.t.v. drunk while driving, had a loaded rifle in the front seat , use of a firearm while intoxicated etc etc...

They admitted to commiting crimes. They are criminals whether they were charged or not. They said so them selves.

I'm actually amazed they were not charged with any crimes. I havent found any sources anyways to that effect.

I hate this has turned into a racial thing and not just some terrible people that started a chaotic chain of events.

This wasn't a case of a unarmed person minding their own bussiness getting gunned down . Theses adults were commiting crimes and causing a danger to the public . Had they just stayed home and had a few drinks there this never happens.

It is a tradgic story but a story they carved out for them selves.

This is all irrelevant to whether or not Mr. Stanley committed murder or manslaughter. The defence of self-defence was not (as far as I understand it) raised at trial.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Makarov

This is all irrelevant to whether or not Mr. Stanley committed murder or manslaughter. The defence of self-defence was not (as far as I understand it) raised at trial.

Sure, but it can certainly sway how much empathy people feel for the victim.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Sure, but it can certainly sway how much empathy people feel for the victim.

Sure, I get that.

I do find it interesting that the focus of this thread has been primarily on the actions of Mr. Bushie and not on whether or not Mr. Stanley has gotten away with murder (or manslaughter).

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Makarov

This is all irrelevant to whether or not Mr. Stanley committed murder or manslaughter. The defence of self-defence was not (as far as I understand it) raised at trial.

The person he quoted specifically asked why people in this thread said Bushie was a criminal.

That’s pretty relevant.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The person he quoted specifically asked why people in this thread said Bushie was a criminal.

That’s pretty relevant.

Fair enough. There is little doubt that Mr. Bushir and his companions were engaging in criminal behaviour on the night of the shooting (and I have little doubt had also done so in the past).

But it is interesting that so much of this thread has been devoted to discussing that issue rather than the issue of Mr. Stanley’s guilt (especially given the implausibility of the rifle misfire defence [at least it sounds pretty implausible to me]). I’d like to read a little bit more about the evidence adduced at trial before I make up my mind. However, I think that issue deserves more attention in this thread.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Makarov

This is all irrelevant to whether or not Mr. Stanley committed murder or manslaughter. The defence of self-defence was not (as far as I understand it) raised at trial.

How it is irrelevant?

I know you're a lawyer, but given those charges against Stanley, isn't the jury asked to essentially evaluate Stanley's behavior right up until the moment of discharge to see if his actions he took prior to the shooting were reasonable or not? I.E. was it reasonable to discharge the firearm (fire the warning shots) and have the firearm pointed at Bouchie?

[GirlySports]

Would a handful of natives jurors have made a difference? Need all 12 jurors for a conviction and the prosecution's case was so poor.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They're where they are because their culture was destroyed. Their culture was destroyed because that's what happens when more advanced and populous cultures meet less advanced and populous ones. It's the outcome every single time, in every corner of the planet. It requires no malice on the part of the more advanced and populous culture (which isn't to say malice is absent).

I don't look at history through the lens of a Hollywood movie narrative, with heroes, villains, and saviours. There's nothing that could have preserved the native cultures of the Americas, given the enormous disparity in technology between the old world and new, never mind the disease vulnerability that resulted in 90 per cent of the pre-contact population falling prey to smallpox, etc.

The issue is how to move forward. I don't believe the interests of native Canadians are best served by treating them as noble victims and non-native Canadians as malignant oppressors. It's an approach that makes some people feel good about themselves, but accomplishes very little.

The rest of Canada should recognize and meet our treaty obligations. And care for those natives who fall into poverty and social dysfunction, as we care for all Canadians who suffer. But a race-based justice system is a terrible idea.

I wonder how it is in other countries. In South America for example weren't the natives totally destroyed where the entire continent speaks Spanish and is Catholic? Do they face the same or more struggles as the natives here?

[Deelow]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Yep. I'm guilty. Or, I just find it interesting when every single CBC article tells me in no uncertain terms I'm a racist because I think this may have been a fair trial and then I find one from the same news source that offers a different point of view. If you need 100% compliance to achieve your goal you may be the one projecting.

Not just that, but the lack of sharing of agreed facts that drives me nuts. I've seen many posts, tweets and shares from prominent CBC people (mostly eastern based) that refuse to acknowledge this was more than a flat tire.

It's one thing to determine a conclusion after reviewing the facts, but for a journalist to either purposely omit, or not be responsible enough to research the whole story before publishing, sharing, posting is a crime against the profession.

It should be common knowledge that there was more going on here than a flat tire. I'm convinced many that have labeled Stanley as a racist murderer don't realize the events that led up to the shots being fired.

[Flamenspiel]

Generally, they were way worse off in South America then in Canada. The Spanish and Portuguese were absolutely ruthless, only natives that were shielded by the harsh landscape, mosquitoes and climate survived.

Of course the Portuguese brought in the black slaves as well and I believe they had slavery well after it was abolished in the US(1888 vs 1865). The Portuguese slave castles were notorius.