[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Completely Incorrect.

New building, Old Building, doesnt matter.

We are one of the Top 10 Franchises in the League in terms of Revenues, there is no way we are without a team for any discernible period of time. Not a chance.

There is zero chance the NHL moves a team back to Calgary to play in the Saddledome if one leaves. Zero. Of course they would never leave before a new arena is built though so moo point.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Table 5

People who equate public libraries with private sports arenas tend to come across as the the types of individuals who may benefit from visiting the former a bit more often.

When I need to do research, my order of sources is approximately this:

1. Known valid sources online.
2. Google and sift results for quality.
3. Buy used books through Amazon.
4. Buy new books through Amazon.
5. University library (rated this low because I do not have borrowing rights).

The public library doesn't even register on the list, because I can guarantee that it does not have the materials I need. Sure, I could ask for them through interlibrary loan, but when I need to do research, I need to do it now and not a month from now.

Meanwhile, the public library system is spending $245 million on a palatial building when millions of square feet of existing space are standing empty downtown, and most of the demand for library services is in other parts of the city. Yup, sounds legit.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Who's paying for the new arena if the Flames do leave? There's zero chance the NHL allows the Flames to relocate only to put another team back in the Saddledome.

As a side note, do you have he financials from the 2015/2016 or the most recent 2016/2017 seasons that shows they are a top 10 team? I'd actually be interested in reading those numbers for comparisons sake.

Theres lots if you want to look for them.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...teams-in-2010/

That is operating income, we're 10th out of 30.

Look at how the NHL has clung to Phoenix like grim death, they're not letting a top 10 franchise move anywhere less profitable even if they're playing on a pond outdoors.

Originally Posted by Weitz

There is zero chance the NHL moves a team back to Calgary to play in the Saddledome if one leaves. Zero. Of course they would never leave before a new arena is built though so moo point.

Theres two moo(t) points in there.

1. You are correct, the NHL would never approve another NHL team into the Saddledome if the Flames were ever allowed to leave. Remember, relocation is not something that the team or the owners are allowed to do without League approval.

2. The Flames would never be allowed to leave unless they found a more profitable location. Which at the moment doesnt exist. Seattle, Quebec and Southern Ontario are speculative at best.

So the answer would be a hard 'No.'

[calf]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Uh... Nenshi's gone from "no public money" in 2015 to "public money for public benefit" as of early in 2016. He's moved quite a bit.

I find this very interesting. The public benefit could take a few forms.

1) The building being part of an Olympic bid and the incremental economic activity that results

2) If no Olympics, how a deal is structured between the Flames and the City. The original proposal centered around the city putting up the cash and then being repaid by the CRL, ticket tax, etc. Probably plus interest if the city goes into debt...really, the city is losing out on the time-value of money by fronting the cash and getting it back over however many years. Assuming this was the intent of the Flames, to say "we'll pay you back over time", which is really just a long term lease, there's nothing in it for the city. But, if a premium was tacked onto the interest, all of the sudden there is financial benefit for the city to making this investment. Yes, it's an extra cost for the Flames, but that's a part of doing business if they want new sources of revenue.

[Par]

The mayor fired back, he did not hold anything back.

“I want it to end in something that doesn’t look like Edmonton, that is a deal where any public money is very clear and it absolutely leads to public benefit.”

When you look at the Edmonton deal, it’s so opaque.

“How many people know the City of Edmonton actually pays money to the Oilers, millions of dollars every year, to be a sponsor of the Oilers?

"That was part of the deal. We’re not doing anything like that.”

“I could say: Really, is Rogers, who is giving you all that money, going to be happy about you taking a team out of western Canada?”

“Do you think Pierre Karl Peladeau is going to give you a better deal than the city of Calgary?”




http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/06/07...-like-edmonton


I don't see a deal happening anytime soon, if Nenshi is reelected, than it will take even longer.

[Tinordi]

The PA would sue the NHL if they allowed a top ten revenue franchise to relocate to a place where it would lose revenue.

There's just so many reasons why the threat of moving is emptier than a bachelor's fridge.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Par

The mayor fired back, he did not hold anything back.

“I want it to end in something that doesn’t look like Edmonton, that is a deal where any public money is very clear and it absolutely leads to public benefit.”

When you look at the Edmonton deal, it’s so opaque.

“How many people know the City of Edmonton actually pays money to the Oilers, millions of dollars every year, to be a sponsor of the Oilers?

"That was part of the deal. We’re not doing anything like that.”

“I could say: Really, is Rogers, who is giving you all that money, going to be happy about you taking a team out of western Canada?”

“Do you think Pierre Karl Peladeau is going to give you a better deal than the city of Calgary?”




http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/06/07...-like-edmonton


I don't see a deal happening anytime soon, if Nenshi is reelected, than it will take even longer.

Why do you look on this as something negative?

The Edmonton Oilers basically raped and pillaged the City of Edmonton!

The City of Calgary is coming and saying: "We'll be co-operative, but we wont be raped and pillaged!"

And thats bad?

Hell.....I know Edmonton is No Good, but man....I just dont see the disconnect here.

The Citizens of Edmonton just got screwed by the Oilers and they're turning around and thanking them for the privilege.

I absolutely do not want to see that happen here. At all.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Those who think the NHL would allow another team relocate to play in the Saddledome are out of their minds.

If the Flames were to leave (won't happen, public funding will come, and should come), the NHL would require a new building to even begin to contemplate returning to Calgary and even then it's likely a 20 year absence. Oh, and who do you think would pay for the new arena?

No one is going to come into a city like Calgary and privately fund an arena. It won't happen, it's bad business when you look at in a silo - and even worse when you realize there are other cities willing to contribute to arena projects in numerous places around North America.

Really, do share? Will these cities also prop up joke franchises like Arizona with the revenue they generate in comparison to the Flames?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sure. But in order to do that you have to have a buyer.

Maybe the City should buy the team!! Then they'd have a reason to build the arena! And Nenshi could coach!

Could you imagine a Government Owned NHL team?

Oh man.....the Union Dues alone would be worth it!

That isn't allowed.

Also, could you imagine if a government bought a team and the NHL were forced to open their books to the public?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cappy

That isn't allowed.

Also, could you imagine if a government bought a team and the NHL were forced to open their books to the public?

It would be a wild, wild world.

An NHL team's expenditures reviewed with the scrutiny of a public audit all the time?

It would be a hell of a ride.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's like none of you have ever seen Brian Burke operate. Like his time in Toronto, Vancouver, and Anaheim never happened.

It's similar to people who are surprised by Donald Trump's recent behavior. Lots of guys grow out of being a-holes in their early 20s, but once you've had 60+ years of experience at it, that's just who you are.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

When I need to do research, my order of sources is approximately this:

1. Known valid sources online.
2. Google and sift results for quality.
3. Buy used books through Amazon.
4. Buy new books through Amazon.
5. University library (rated this low because I do not have borrowing rights).

The public library doesn't even register on the list, because I can guarantee that it does not have the materials I need. Sure, I could ask for them through interlibrary loan, but when I need to do research, I need to do it now and not a month from now.

Meanwhile, the public library system is spending $245 million on a palatial building when millions of square feet of existing space are standing empty downtown, and most of the demand for library services is in other parts of the city. Yup, sounds legit.

It's as if a central library should exist for things other then research.

Can't believe people rail against a freaking library. Yes there are millions of sq feet available downtown. Name 1 building that was designed to hold the weight of the public library's book collection.

I prefer to buy my soup at a grocery store. We should close all soup kitchens.

[CliffFletcher]

Modern libraries aren't primarily about books anymore. They're a combination of indoor public plaza, digital lab, and meeting space.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Modern libraries aren't primarily about books anymore. They're a combination of indoor public plaza, digital lab, and meeting space.

But I don't use it!!

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Modern libraries aren't primarily about books anymore. They're a combination of indoor public plaza, digital lab, and meeting space.

A shared space of learning, community building, and engagement open to all people?? What a waste!

Wouldn't it be better to use that money as a monument to the rich patricians where we could charge $200 per visit to satisfy their tribal blood lust?

[Hockey Fan #751]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Those who think the NHL would allow another team relocate to play in the Saddledome are out of their minds.

If the Flames were to leave (won't happen, public funding will come, and should come), the NHL would require a new building to even begin to contemplate returning to Calgary and even then it's likely a 20 year absence. Oh, and who do you think would pay for the new arena?

No one is going to come into a city like Calgary and privately fund an arena. It won't happen, it's bad business when you look at in a silo - and even worse when you realize there are other cities willing to contribute to arena projects in numerous places around North America.

Not only that, but you need a team with BOTH an owner motivated to sell/move and an expiring or expired arena lease. It doesn't come along very often.

[Wormius]

So my understanding is that the citizens of Calgary would get nothing directly from funding this arena? If the CSEC would want to sweeten the pot a bit, why not offer to allow every resident of Calgary 5 - 10 tickets to any event in the new arena. If I was guaranteed to get something out of this, I might be a little more open for public money going into this. As it is, why would anybody who's a taxpayer in Calgary feel beholden to this enterprise?

[northcrunk]

The threat of moving the team may have working pre 2004 but there is no way they would move them now. If they do we would have another team lining up to come here.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

A shared space of learning, community building, and engagement open to all people?? What a waste!

Let's start by saying that libraries are a great resource. Having access to information and literature is a path to better and more productive society.

But lets play devil's advocate here. Exactly how many of these structures does the city need? There are 18 public libraries in Calgary. According to statistics 393,000 Calgarians hold library cards. The average library in Canada will see just under 98,000 visitors a year. So you have dedicated 18 buildings, with 2,195,000 items in the collection, to service a select group of patrons from the community.

For comparison sake, in the same period the Saddledome attracted just over 1,118,000 fans for Flames and Hitmen games. I can't speak for other events, as those numbers weren't posted, but that's an awful lot of bodies that go through one building.

So do you spend $250M on another library which sees limited use, of which there are 17 others, or throw that into a building badly in need of replacement, one which sees many more visitors and generates more revenues for the City?

Wouldn't it be better to use that money as a monument to the rich patricians where we could charge $200 per visit to satisfy their tribal blood lust?

I don't know, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to build another library where a select few people can loiter or borrow DVDs and CDs to take home and pirate for free?

I think we can all agree there has to be middle ground in this discussion, and rushing to extremes or labeling patrons who likely frequent both facilities is not helping.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

But I don't use it!!

I doubt you're going to be using a new arena much either when the Flames are done cranking up the average ticket price to un-affordable levels once a new structure is built. The worst part is that prices have already ballooned over the last 10 years. They're lining everyone in the city up to be bled dry before they come back for more.

People complaining about libraries probably don't understand that they offer far more services than simply renting books....family classes, meeting spaces, educational events, access to technology. Its not just libraries under attack either, Mr. Burke also scoffed at the notion of having a national music centre in the city....imagine Calgary having something ground breaking that can support industry besides oil and hockey! Mr. Burke also thinks we should be dolling out tax breaks to all his millionaire players because it's just not fair. Maybe we should offer every Flames player free gasoline and groceries if they sign with the team to further level the playing field?

At this point I say the city should put him and his buddy Ken into a cannon and shoot them over the glenmore reservoir. Anyone who is still lapping this rubbish up needs to question if they even want this province/city to succeed.