[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

How exactly was CalgaryNEXT going to leverage a reduced cost for the fieldhouse? City wants $200 million for the fieldhouse. Flames want....$200 million for CalgaryNEXT. Difference is CalgaryNEXT would never be a 100% public access facility, and the fieldhouse would be. For the mayor the optics would be atrocious to let that happen.

Man I can't believe my suggestion that a more appropriate response from the city has me now having to come up with a deal for them ...

has never been my point.

But they could have countered with anything, that's what you do for pete's sake.

Take the CRL out.
Say sure to a fieldhouse but since it's not 100% public we will only give you 135M for it.
You have to pay half of the clean op costs

They were all up for grabs.

He went for self promotion instead.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

My point is that the City was publicly telling CSEC not to go for the Edmonton special and King still went for it. Who's being unprofessional and political here?

It's unprofessional to propose a deal similar to a city 300KMs from Calgary?

I was never expecting it to fly, but it was a logical opening, the mayor bloviating before the fact doesn't change that. i'm sure I could find 100 quotes from the city of Edmonton saying what they wouldn't do before that negotiation started

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man I can't believe my suggestion that a more appropriate response from the city has me now having to come up with a deal for them ...

has never been my point.

But they could have countered with anything, that's what you do for pete's sake.

Take the CRL out.
Say sure to a fieldhouse but since it's not 100% public we will only give you 135M for it.
You have to pay half of the clean op costs

They were all up for grabs.

He went for self promotion instead.

I'm not sure why 'no' isn't a reasonable response in this case

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The money doesn't technically exist right now. The fieldhouse is not in any budget at present, so it's not even possible for it to be spent elsewhere. As far as property taxes go, yeah I don't like that they're high, and giving the Flames $200 million only ensures they'll be higher going forward. So if you hate property tax increases you should be against this.

My, and your, property taxes are not increased because of financing of this project. The financing is covered by payments from the Flames and development in the area. Our property taxes are increased by pet projects that add no real value to anyone, i.e. the Blue Ring, the Fish Art on the walls of the underpass below Macleod Trail at Glenmore, the $25M bridge that could have been bid on and built for 25% of the cost.

I understand that you hate this project but let's not distort the facts. The City is being asked to "lend" their ability to get financing at a cheaper rate than the Flames. The only direct money they are being asked to contribute, which I believe is a throw away in this whole project, is for a fieldhouse that the City Council has stated for years is needed but has never been budgeted for. I also believe that the city has no intention of ever building this fieldhouse but are using it for political purposes come election time, i.e. "we need this for our citizens and we will get the funding included", then once in office they never discuss it again.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by Muta

I don't know about the presentation side. I have my opinions on that too. My point, is that this was a concept, was always a concept, and it was transformational in the sense that it was literally building a entire new neighborhood (with commercial and residential towers, a fieldhouse, public space, etc.) from scratch with a rarely-seen dual football stadium / hockey arena as the anchor.

Like I said, I have my opinions on the presentation too, but don't think for a second that the planning and conceptual design for something like this didn't have alot of work that went into it. I have to reiterate that the arena / stadium design were always conceptual (two iterations were released). There were never final, and should never have been interpreted as such. People need to understand that.

EDIT: I've seen another completely different concept for the West Village as well, something that was done a while ago and that I preferred more actually. There was more work completed than just the one you saw ending up on the CN website.

Then why did the Flames publish a concept and not something more official? All these years we had been waiting for something in regards to the arena, and this is what they delivered? A hypothetical concept? A concept that has never been done before where they have no clue how it might possibly turn out. Why didn't the Flames publish the concept that had more time spent on it? Face it, the Flames ####ed up royally on this issue and have just made people even more mad.

I have a concept. I propose a floating stadium, arena, and field house. All three will hover in the air, and when one of them is needed, it can be lowered to the ground. Saves lots is space. All I need is a few hundred billion dollars of tax money. I'll throw in a toilet paper tube statue I made as the public art component.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

My, and your, property taxes are not increased because of financing of this project. The financing is covered by payments from the Flames and development in the area. Our property taxes are increased by pet projects that add no real value to anyone, i.e. the Blue Ring, the Fish Art on the walls of the underpass below Macleod Trail at Glenmore, the $25M bridge that could have been bid on and built for 25% of the cost.

I understand that you hate this project but let's not distort the facts. The City is being asked to "lend" their ability to get financing at a cheaper rate than the Flames. The only direct money they are being asked to contribute, which I believe is a throw away in this whole project, is for a fieldhouse that the City Council has stated for years is needed but has never been budgeted for. I also believe that the city has no intention of ever building this fieldhouse but are using it for political purposes come election time, i.e. "we need this for our citizens and we will get the funding included", then once in office they never discuss it again.

You don't think a 200M-1B dollar expense that wasn't budgeted for wouldn't effect your property taxes?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's unprofessional to propose a deal similar to a city 300KMs from Calgary?

I was never expecting it to fly, but it was a logical opening, the mayor bloviating before the fact doesn't change that. i'm sure I could find 100 quotes from the city of Edmonton saying what they wouldn't do before that negotiation started

It wasn't just the mayor it was the whole council as well.

Obviously city officials understood where CSEC was angling based on closed doors meetings with them over the past 5 years. The City went through public channels to broadcast to CSEC that it wasn't what they wanted to do.

In any case, CSEC's strategy, (if it was to build CalgaryNEXT) utterly failed. So I don't think you're making a strong point. They started a negotiation and lost so it's fair to say that they should have started negotiating from a different position than Edmonton's.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by The Familia

Then why did the Flames publish a concept and not something more official? All these years we had been waiting for something in regards to the arena, and this is what they delivered? A hypothetical concept? A concept that has never been done before where they have no clue how it might possibly turn out. Why didn't the Flames publish the concept that had more time spent on it? Face it, the Flames ####ed up royally on this issue and have just made people even more mad.

Can you define 'more official'? What do you mean by that? Did you not like the renderings, is that it?

If so, here's an example that may be relevant to you. The National Music Centre looks nothing like it's original, approved concept - but it does, now look way better. Remember, that project was released as a concept (through a competition, no less) a long time ago, and the final product actually ended up being much different.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Part of my criticism is that I have no idea what the city's long-term plan is for that area. I think it needs to be cleaned up and it needs to be re-developed. How and when?
I would like the city to find a way to get that done.
Per your comments - this was one way. Perhaps not THE way, but what is the plan for the west village? Is there one?

From what I understand, the plan is to wait until the East Village if built-out before considering the remediation and development of the West Village.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man I can't believe my suggestion that a more appropriate response from the city has me now having to come up with a deal for them ...

has never been my point.

But they could have countered with anything, that's what you do for pete's sake.

Take the CRL out.
Say sure to a fieldhouse but since it's not 100% public we will only give you 135M for it.
You have to pay half of the clean op costs

They were all up for grabs.

He went for self promotion instead.

You take it, as self-promotion and arrogance. I can appreciate and understand that, yet disagree.

I take Nenshi's dismissiveness, as a measured negotiating tactic. The ask, was simply much much rich for the city, to engage in a counter-offer.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

You take it, as self-promotion and arrogance. I can appreciate and understand that, yet disagree.

I take Nenshi's dismissiveness, as a measured negotiating tactic. The ask, was simply much much rich for the city, to engage in a counter-offer.

First off thanks for the measured response, refreshing!

I'd be more in on the tactic angle if it wasn't for his Uber and "simple math" debacles this year.

Put them together and I have no trust for the guy whatsoever.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

This is also the second attempt (that I'm aware of) to clean up that area. A few years ago there was a pretty ambitious plan that centered in part around the Pumphouse Theater.
That also feel apart.
Part of my criticism is that I have no idea what the city's long-term plan is for that area. I think it needs to be cleaned up and it needs to be re-developed. How and when?
I would like the city to find a way to get that done.
Per your comments - this was one way. Perhaps not THE way, but what is the plan for the west village? Is there one?

The West Village ARP is from 2010

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/ESM/Pages/...ment-plan.aspx

But such plans take a lot of time. The East Village still isn't done yet, nor is Victoria Park, and they've been on the city's books a lot longer. Can only revitalize so many areas at once.

[Joborule]

I don't get how the city/Nenshi isn't being cooperative here. It's not the city's/mayor's job or interest to propose a new arena; that's CSEC job. CSEC did so, the city responded, and has taken the initiative to do a technical comparison CSEC proposal with Plan B.

The city is investing time and money to do CSECs job here. The city could've just simply said 'no, try again.' And left it at that, leaving CSEC to do all the work on an alternative once again.

Some seem to have the impression that the city is being cold here and isn't interested in progress, but I get the opposite vibe. They're doing a study to see if 'Plan B' is more feasible. That indicates to me that they're interested, and looking for the best option for the city possible. If they're going to be investing money into this, that's completely reasonable.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Yoho

A tad harsh?

Oops. Sorry Jiri. Wasn't meant to sound harsh, but it was a hard question to figure out. It reminded me of this a bit which is kind of funny:

Q: "When he went, had you gone and had she, if she wanted to and were able, for the time being excluding all the restraints on her not to go, gone also, would he have brought you, meaning you and she, with him to the station?"
Opposing atorney: "Objection. That question should be taken out and shot."

[Ace]

I'm definitely in the minority i'm sure, but the bright side of Calgary NEXT was a new indoor football stadium. As far as i'm concerned there is enough money in the NHL that one day a new facility is inevitable, and i'll enjoy events almost as much as I would in a new building until that time.

The CFL just doesn't have the money, and if this arena gets isolated on it's own, it becomes much more likely that we'll see at best a renovation of McMahon that i suspect will be highly underwhelming.

I just really think a new state of the art football stadium gives much more options to this city for new events we don't currently get. (Maybe Soccer, huge monster truck shows, some big concerts, etc.)

I'd almost prefer public dollars for the stadium than the arena.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Muta

You can interpret it however you want, that is totally your right. But, what I get aggravated about is comments like 'five pages long' in describing an absolutely massive concept like CalgaryNEXT, even moreso when nothing of this magnitude has been done before. This is why I rarely post in this thread anymore because of all the vitriol, hate and self-purported 'experts' that weigh their own opinion in gold. It'd be akin to me going into the Oil and Gas Discussion thread in the off topic forum and telling people how to do their job in there. This is the equivalent in this thread.

I abstain from funding discussion in this thread. However, from a development standpoint, something like this isn't easy, and if you believe the concept was released prematurely you absolutely have that right. I just want people to understand this project was not conceived on a napkin in a dingy burger joint.

The problem may be that many people are comparing this concept to the various project proposals they have done in the oil and gas industry and find the proposal lacking and only including napkin level detail.

Since you are in the Industry why wasn't the information provided in the flames response to the city included in the original package? To me in other industries that would have been a minimum starting point.

[Tinordi]

The area plan of the arena was really bad. I'm not a planner but I'm married to one. That makes me feel qualified to say that.

Seriously though, a bunch of modern planning principles were ignored. If alot of people worked really hard on the concept Muta then I would posit that it was alot of the wrong people.

How many planners and landscape architects were brought in on the project do you know?

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't like how Nenshi behaves at times, and this was no different. I happen to agree with what his stance is, but there are different ways to come out and say what you mean. I really dislike Nenshi's propensity for making a 'show' of things.

It was the correct response in my opinion, but he handled it badly. You don't come out that way in the media with that lack of respect for people who have done quite a bit for this city, an employer that supports a tonne of charities, etc.

I would hope his position was the same, but boy could he use some lessons in tact.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Ace

I'm definitely in the minority i'm sure, but the bright side of Calgary NEXT was a new indoor football stadium. As far as i'm concerned there is enough money in the NHL that one day a new facility is inevitable, and i'll enjoy events almost as much as I would in a new building until that time.

The CFL just doesn't have the money, and if this arena gets isolated on it's own, it becomes much more likely that we'll see at best a renovation of McMahon that i suspect will be highly underwhelming.

I just really think a new state of the art football stadium gives much more options to this city for new events we don't currently get. (Maybe Soccer, huge monster truck shows, some big concerts, etc.)

I'd almost prefer public dollars for the stadium than the arena.

The indoor CFL stadium was one of my big issues with CalgaryNext. No one wants to go sit inside to watch a football game on a beautiful summer eve.

Also, because of the way this was going to be a convertible fieldhouse, stuff like monster truck shows and large concerts would never be possible. Soccer would be possible. The problem is you want to be able to use the fieldhouse, so the goal would be to have as few big events as possible in there, not as many as possible.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Seriously though, a bunch of modern planning principles were ignored. If alot of people worked really hard on the concept Muta then I would posit that it was alot of the wrong people.

Ouch. I'd like to know why you think this. I wouldn't say these are the wrong people.

Originally Posted by Tinordi

How many planners and landscape architects were brought in on the project do you know?

Not sure. I'm not involved anymore, and was never directly involved... but I do know there were different ideas proposed, and I know that multiple consultants collaborated on different schemes. I've seen one for the West Village that was, and still is, fricking awesome.