Canada's University System

[GirlySports]

It's managers and HR. At some point it switched that some places only hired people with degrees. So more people had to go get them. Then there are too many of them so there needs to be a new bar. Again, my example in Accounting. B.Comm to get entry level, CPA to go higher. I can tell you, it doesn't take 6-7 years of education of a CPA to review financial statements.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by wireframe

Grades used to as a barrier to keep people out of university, and thereore out of jobs, is a huge concern. My dad is one of the smartest people I know and he went to university with a high school average in the 60% range. He's a high school teacher now and, by all accounts, an excellent one. It's worrying that people are being kept out of good jobs simply by not having high enough grades in high school. I know parent's who require their kids after school tutors to have a master's degree for god sake.



This whole phenomenon is called credentialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creden...onal_inflation

Welcome to the real world.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by wireframe

Grades used to as a barrier to keep people out of university, and thereore out of jobs, is a huge concern. My dad is one of the smartest people I know and he went to university with a high school average in the 60% range. He's a high school teacher now and, by all accounts, an excellent one. It's worrying that people are being kept out of good jobs simply by not having high enough grades in high school. I know parent's who require their kids after school tutors to have a master's degree for god sake.



This whole phenomenon is called credentialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creden...onal_inflation

So how should we determine who can enrol in university? Money? A lottery? Or just expand capacity even more and let everyone who applies in?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So how should we determine who can enrol in university? Money? A lottery? Or just expand capacity even more and let everyone who applies in?

They should revamp the high school system back to the way it was so that kids aren't getting 97%+ entrance averages.

Under the current system it does become about money. Not for everyone, as some students will be genuinely talented/hard working. But for most, it becomes about what tutors your parents can afford. How can they build your resume by getting you involved in expensive extra curricular activities. Do they have connections to build your resume or maybe even on the admissions boards? Do you have to take time away from school to earn money and work? Etc...

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by blankall

How can they build your resume by getting you involved in expensive extra curricular activities. Do they have connections to build your resume or maybe even on the admissions boards? Do you have to take time away from school to earn money and work? Etc...

Tutors are absolutely a factor - the amount of money some parents have spent getting kids through high school courses with good grades is significant.

But I think almost all Canadian undergrad admissions are basically just marks based. So resume padding and connections don't really matter for that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

And that's another thing that's gone extinct, the posting of first class honors.

Presumably over concern that it hurt the esteem of kids who didn’t make the list. Don’t kids already know who their high-achieving classmates are? And now more and more boards in Canada are doing away with streaming and honours programs altogether.

The knots educators tie themselves into to pretend there isn’t a competitive element to education is embarrassing.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Tutors are absolutely a factor - the amount of money some parents have spent getting kids through high school courses with good grades is significant.

But I think almost all Canadian undergrad admissions are basically just marks based. So resume padding and connections don't really matter for that.

They do matter for admission to grad/professional schools. The schools are very interested in whether or not you had some kind of extracurriculars, both in high school and during university. It's a bit of a joke, because even at the university level, in Canada, athletics don't really require all that much talent. Participation in many, even NCAA sports, is largely a function of how many resources your parents put into them.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So how should we determine who can enrol in university? Money? A lottery? Or just expand capacity even more and let everyone who applies in?

A lottery for anyone over x grades would be a pretty reasonable solution. Lots of mericratic and democratic systems should be replaced with lotteries.

Unless someone believes there are real performance differences between an 85 high school average and a 95 high school average.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

A lottery for anyone over x grades would be a pretty reasonable solution. Lots of mericratic and democratic systems should be replaced with lotteries.

Unless someone believes there are real performance differences between an 85 high school average and a 95 high school average.

It would make more sense to have a sink or swim system in the first 2 years of university. A lot of programs already use this method. Let in all the decent high school students. Then just make the first 1-2 years of university really challenging and cut the ones that don't hack it.

[timun]

I, too, remember the execrable first couple years of my engineering degree...

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

It would make more sense to have a sink or swim system in the first 2 years of university. A lot of programs already use this method. Let in all the decent high school students. Then just make the first 1-2 years of university really challenging and cut the ones that don't hack it.

Yeah, I like that concept, Enginering used to fail 1/3rd of its first years fairly consistently. one low cost year with large class sizes and hard curves and limited spots in the 2nd year program.

I wonder though if you would just move the bottleneck with an approach like that. Would you get people trying multiple times to make the cut and the same 97% grade inflation problem existing? At least they would be competing in the same classes for spots as opposed to the high school system.

[Strange Brew]

Why not focus on class rank vs. absolute grades when it comes to admittance.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why not focus on class rank vs. absolute grades when it comes to admittance.

A major issue would be that there is a pretty large variance in ability between schools as well. Also, in a system where all the good students get 90%+, is there really difference between the student with a 94% and a 92%, despite the fact they may rank substantially differently.

Another issue is with the subjectivity in the system. Certain teachers are going to favor some students.

Generally, subjectivity in admissions is also a horrible idea. It leads to abuse by parents who build their children's resumes. The people making the decisions aren't in any position to actually judge an applicant's "character" or "well-roundedness".

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why not focus on class rank vs. absolute grades when it comes to admittance.

How you compare a rural high school to a private school?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

A major issue would be that there is a pretty large variance in ability between schools as well. Also, in a system where all the good students get 90%+, is there really difference between the student with a 94% and a 92%, despite the fact they may rank substantially differently.

Another issue is with the subjectivity in the system. Certain teachers are going to favor some students.

Generally, subjectivity in admissions is also a horrible idea. It leads to abuse by parents who build their children's resumes. The people making the decisions aren't in any position to actually judge an applicant's "character" or "well-roundedness".

Wasn’t there a few years ago they found some of the private schools in Calgary had far greater variance between the grade assigned by the school and the grade achieved by the student on provincial exams essentially showing that these schools were grading much easier than public schools?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.macl...igh-marks/amp/

I’m not sure what came of it. But even supposedly objective marks are subjective when individual schools still account for 50% of the total.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’m not sure what came of it. But even supposedly objective marks are subjective when individual schools still account for 50% of the total.

Diploma exam marks are down to 30% of the final grade now, to reduce test anxiety.

[Mr.Coffee]

I actually do think there’s a marked difference between kids who average 95% and others who average 85%. In my experience anyway.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I actually do think there’s a marked difference between kids who average 95% and others who average 85%. In my experience anyway.

Would you say the former is, what, 10% better?

[Geraldsh]

How about an entrance exam? The notion that students should be shielded from the stresses of tests is just postponing an important life-lesson.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

How about an entrance exam? The notion that students should be shielded from the stresses of tests is just postponing an important life-lesson.

Standardized testing like SATs is still a test of parental means to some degree.