American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Thanks. That is a good timing - although it is one person telling their story as opposed to giving any stats.

agreed, the stats are short. Here is a small excerpt that gives token stats but none that cut to the core of the issue of how many nurses are actually leaving the country.

"In a recent survey by the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE), 87 percent of more than 2600 hospital registered practical nurses (RPNs) said they have considered leaving their nursing job after the pandemic because of working conditions and abusive behaviour directed at them by families of patients.

Staffing levels in Canadian hospitals are being impacted too. Statistics Canada reported that job vacancies in the health care and social assistance sector reached an all-time high of 136,800 in the first quarter of 2022, rising nearly 91 per cent compared to the first quarter of 2020."

the job vacancy statistic is the most worrisome.

Here is a link to the mentioned surveys done by CUPE: https://cupe.ca/premier-ford-urged-l...s-and-violence

No raw stats there either about number of departures, but again very worrying survey results with between 50-70% of surveyed members expressing a desire to leave healthcare fields for other industries.

So, perhaps they aren't leaving for other countries necessarily, but many health care professionals seem to be exiting the workforce of that industry altogether.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hard to find exact stats.



Since the U.S. and Luxemberg are the only countries where nurse earn more than in Canada, safe to assume higher-paying international jobs pretty much means the U.S.

Here’s a study showing 20k Canadian nurses and 10 per cent of nursing grads working in the U.S.

https://www.longwoods.com/content/23...tion-to-the-us
.

You don’t get to just hand wave away a ridiculous claim that you can’t back up. You can just say it was hyperbole.

Almost the entirety of the article you linked is about burn out, and people leaving the profession entirely. They is a small snippet from someone who’s moving, and another who hypothesizes commuting in and out of NYC every day from Canada to make big money… which is obviously stupid. And good for her if that’s how you want to spend your free time, in a plane.

The second link doesn’t seem to work for me but I’ll read it when it does. But your snippet from it doesn’t imply that staff are flooding to the states to work. It’s a real problem that needs a solution, not nonsense to try and mock Canadians who think the US is unliveable. Which was your only point.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Wasn't so sure I believed it, but here is a globe and mail article regarding nurses from today about the subject: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...moving-abroad/

The article also talks a lot about working conditions and burnout of lifestyle, as we were discussing last page. Either someone at the globe was reading our chat or we have pretty succinctly tapped into the cultural consciousness on the subject.

That article doesn't say what you think is says. In fact, it is an echo of what I stated, where she is a traveling nurse on rotation and will have access so long as the temporary visa is available. The article is more a critique of the Canadian system and uses anecdotal evidence from this one nurse to support their narrative. No study data and nothing concrete to back up their claims. It's like Cliff Fletcher wrote the article.

Originally Posted by Monahammer

So, perhaps they aren't leaving for other countries necessarily, but many health care professionals seem to be exiting the workforce of that industry altogether.

That is likely more accurate because the same thing is happening down here. The pandemic created such incredible burnout that medical professionals are leaving the industry for other endeavors. This is something hitting this sector around the globe and not just isolated to one country or system. The pain and suffering witnessed by these people has taken its toll as have long hours because of the work to save lives.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Source: CliffFletcher.

I trust that will satisfy your request for a citation, Lanny.

Nursed are quitting at unprecedented rates in every province.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/nurses...inds-1.5932193

https://nursesunions.ca/half-of-our-...ping-patients/

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/nurses-l...port-1.5301132

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...emic-1.6396662


And every country in the developed world is facing chronic shortages of health care professionals.

https://www.americanprogress.org/art...ge-in-america/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...posts-unfilled

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/fren...ortage/2607785

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nursin...2OKXOH5QJSUMU/


Isn’t this common knowledge? Do you even follow the news, or do you just get your worldview by osmosis from social media?

[Lanny_McDonald]

^^^ None of that supports what you claimed. Sliver was more accurate than anything you linked.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

You don’t get to just hand wave away a ridiculous claim that you can’t back up. You can just say it was hyperbole.

So Hemi-Cuda’s comment that living in the U.S. is worse than living in Canada for 99 per cent of people wasn’t a ridiculous claim?

[The Fonz]

Wasn't the claim that Canada was experiencing an exodus of RNs to the US, not that Canadian RNs were quitting their jobs?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So Hemi-Cuda’s comment that living in the U.S. is worse than living in Canada for 99 per cent of people wasn’t a ridiculous claim?

Right, so you were just playing ridiculous claim tennis with him. And not trying to say anything factual, as the rest of us had assumed.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

That article doesn't say what you think is says.

I'm being pedantic, but I feel this abrasion was totally unnecessary, and untrue, given that you quoted what I thought in this same post and agreed with it.

... maybe just chill out.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Wasn't the claim that Canada was experiencing an exodus of RNs to the US, not that Canadian RNs were quitting their jobs?

Go back and read the thread. After I made my admittedly hyperbolic comment a out flooding out, Krovikan said nurses are quitting because of how they’re treated by this Alberta government. I pointed out nurses are quitting everywhere. Then Sliver quoted that as an example of me making unsubstantiated claims.

I still think it’s funny that this whole chain started with a ridiculous assertion by Hemi-Cuda that got multiple thanks. You can make the most ridiculous, hyperbolic, unsubstantiated assertions you like, and so long as they jibe with the overriding sentiments of the thread it’s all good.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Right, so you were just playing ridiculous claim tennis with him. And not trying to say anything factual, as the rest of us had assumed.

Why hold my comments to a higher standard?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why hold my comments to a higher standard?

How is this even relevant? Not everyone is getting called out for making silly claims so you feel as though you’re being treated unfairly when you’re more than capable of calling them out yourself?

[Mr.Coffee]

Completely anecdotal but my wife who works as a nurse would be saying substantially similar things as Cliff and I don’t think, even if he can’t produce a university level research thesis of evidence, the concerns should be so outright dismissed by the majority here.

Sometimes what you hear from people can be true in a general sense. I only state this insofar as the issue of nurses quitting however, I am not sure if it means they’re flooding to the States.

[CroFlames]

Anecdotal, but I would say my quality of life while living in the USA (California) was better than Canada. But I had a great job and no kids.

It took me 12 months to get an MRI in Canada for a possible heart condition. In the US, I co-payed $20 and the doc referred me to an MRI for a sore back within days.

I moved back for a variety of reasons, but my life in Canada is still great. There is not some night and day difference in your day to day life.

In other words, life in both countries is awesome for different reasons.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why hold my comments to a higher standard?

I think we have a CliffFletcher BINGO, folks!

- Make unsubstantiated claim
- Get countered with evidence that refutes claim
- Refuse to engage with the evidence
- Counter with evidence that does not support original claim
- Have it pointed out that this evidence does not support claim
- Move goalposts
- Play the victim when called out for trademark bull####

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Completely anecdotal but my wife who works as a nurse would be saying substantially similar things as Cliff and I don’t think, even if he can’t produce a university level research thesis of evidence, the concerns should be so outright dismissed by the majority here.

Sometimes what you hear from people can be true in a general sense. I only state this insofar as the issue of nurses quitting however, I am not sure if it means they’re flooding to the States.

I think its the job as opposed to the location. You can find articles all over about nurses in the US quitting and nursing shortages in the US.

Its an extremely difficult job particularly during a pandemic when you are putting yourself at more risk than normal.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Anecdotal, but I would say my quality of life while living in the USA (California) was better than Canada. But I had a great job and no kids.

It took me 12 months to get an MRI in Canada for a possible heart condition. In the US, I co-payed $20 and the doc referred me to an MRI for a sore back within days.

I moved back for a variety of reasons, but my life in Canada is still great. There is not some night and day difference in your day to day life.

In other words, life in both countries is awesome for different reasons.

2 of the best 5 countries in the world to live in.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Completely anecdotal but my wife who works as a nurse would be saying substantially similar things as Cliff and I don’t think, even if he can’t produce a university level research thesis of evidence, the concerns should be so outright dismissed by the majority here.

Completely anecdotal, but have two nurses in the family who do echo the frustrations identified. They're burned out and frustrated and have considered changing vocations. Not going to deny this condition, but it is also important to acknowledge this same condition exists in almost every country, especially the United States. Grass is likely not greener, it is probably astroturf.

Sometimes what you hear from people can be true in a general sense. I only state this insofar as the issue of nurses quitting however, I am not sure if it means they’re flooding to the States.

Therein lies the problem with Cliff's comment and argument. Stated there was a flood of biblical proportions of medical people in Canada heading to the US because "things" are better. Not accurate and nothing to support it except to say that people are frustrated in the industry in Canada, but then ignores that the same frustrations exist here in the US. The data doesn't support the claim of the flood and the conditions for the displeasure on the Canadian side were not considered as a similar detractor on the US marketplace.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/us/nu...rnd/index.html
https://www.foxnews.com/health/pande...doctors-nurses
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021...ting-due-covid

Three sources to offend all political ideologies equally!

As to the migration to the US for work, anecdotally, one of those nurses has been a traveling nurse to the US and was extremely happy when her visa expired and she got to say home. Did she like the money? Yes. Did she like living in the US? Not really. Culturally wasn't her bag. Would she do it again or make the recommendation to her daughter to do the same? Nope. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Anecdotal, but I would say my quality of life while living in the USA (California) was better than Canada. But I had a great job and no kids.

It took me 12 months to get an MRI in Canada for a possible heart condition. In the US, I co-payed $20 and the doc referred me to an MRI for a sore back within days.

I moved back for a variety of reasons, but my life in Canada is still great. There is not some night and day difference in your day to day life.

In other words, life in both countries is awesome for different reasons.

There is no place for thoughtful, well reasoned posts here. Please stop

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

2 of the best 5 countries in the world to live in.

Curious what the other three are.

Finland, Norway, Denmark?

Germany, France, UK?