Six months ago people were saying ROR was a loser and a guy you can't win with
And those people were morons who don't actually watch hockey. ROR has been the hardest working and most defensively-conscious forward on every team he has played on.
The 'you can't win with this guy' narrative came about because he was candid enough to admit to a reporter in Buffalo that it can be demotivating to play on a team loses all the time. I'm sure every other player in the NHL feels the same way, but ROR was careless and actually spoke the truth to the media.
ROR is one of the top two or three forecheckers in the league, and plays as hard without the puck as with it. Monahan is... not. Is there any other Flame you wouldn't prefer to have on the ice when a dangerous player on the other team collects the puck behind his net?
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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They were in the POs. As much as he can be excused for not being 100% effective, the POs is not when you pull and rehab guys who are able to play.
That depends... the injured player has to be better than the guy that's ready to replace him... if not, too bad.
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
... Eakins' claims Gagne's line played Kessel's line even...
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Yeah, Gagner's line was -4 and Kessel's was +4, so it all evened out.
Yzerman is also one of the greatest to ever play the game. I think Monahan gets unfairly criticized around here, but he has physical limitations too.
I have no issues with his demeanor. And the guy consistently pays the price on the ice to get to scoring areas.
I'm not comparing him to Yzerman other than to say a guy can learn to expand his role over time. Yzerman learning the D game wasn't due to physical prowess. It was all attitude and effort.
I'm not comparing him to Yzerman other than to say a guy can learn to expand his role over time. Yzerman learning the D game wasn't due to physical prowess. It was all attitude and effort.
Of course I agree that any player can learn to get better in all facets of the game. But Yzerman’s success as an all around player had everything to do with his physical gifts IMO. He would be great in any facet of the game to which he applied himself.
My point is that Monahan’s “attitude and effort” and pretty damn good IMO and his physical gifts are best suited to being a guy who gets the puck in the back of the net.
Of course I agree that any player can learn to get better in all facets of the game. But Yzerman’s success as an all around player had everything to do with his physical gifts IMO. He would be great in any facet of the game to which he applied himself.
My point is that Monahan’s “attitude and effort” and pretty damn good IMO and his physical gifts are best suited to being a guy who gets the puck in the back of the net.
Sure. I just think he needs to be a tad better in his own end, because he's going to be matched against top lines whenever the other team has a say. And I think he can do it. Defence is mostly positioning and intelligence and he has those attributes.
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ROR is one of the top two or three forecheckers in the league, and plays as hard without the puck as with it. Monahan is... not. Is there any other Flame you wouldn't prefer to have on the ice when a dangerous player on the other team collects the puck behind his net?
Is he though? Or is this just not watching a player on a different team through a microscope?
Last season stats
Monahan/ROR
Hits: 36/31 (I mistakenly wrote 39 earlier)
Blocks: 24/36
Takeaways: 78/94
I don’t buy the argument that ROR is miles better than Monahan without the puck. Or more intense. And he certainly isn’t better than Monahan with the puck.
He also has 3 more seasons in the league.
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And those people were morons who don't actually watch hockey. ROR has been the hardest working and most defensively-conscious forward on every team he has played on.
The 'you can't win with this guy' narrative came about because he was candid enough to admit to a reporter in Buffalo that it can be demotivating to play on a team loses all the time. I'm sure every other player in the NHL feels the same way, but ROR was careless and actually spoke the truth to the media.
ROR is one of the top two or three forecheckers in the league, and plays as hard without the puck as with it. Monahan is... not. Is there any other Flame you wouldn't prefer to have on the ice when a dangerous player on the other team collects the puck behind his net?
That, and the fact until about January 2 of this year, he almost always played on a team that loses all the time while being a highly paid player.
Honestly, I like him as a hockey player (less so as a driver ), but the narrative seemed to be well founded.
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From HFBoard oiler fan, in analyzing MacT's management:
O.K. there has been a lot of talk on whether or not MacTavish has actually done a good job for us, most fans on this board are very basic in their analysis and I feel would change their opinion entirely if the team was successful.
I don’t buy the argument that ROR is miles better than Monahan without the puck. Or more intense. And he certainly isn’t better than Monahan with the puck.
I certainly think ROR is a little overrated and I did argue that on Calgary, he wouldn't have been a clear upgrade on Backlund defensively or Monahan offensively, but this is a bit silly. ROR is the reigning Selke winner. Will Monahan ever finish top 5 in Selke voting?
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"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
I certainly think ROR is a little overrated and I did argue that on Calgary, he wouldn't have been a clear upgrade on Backlund defensively or Monahan offensively, but this is a bit silly. ROR is the reigning Selke winner. Will Monahan ever finish top 5 in Selke voting?
I don’t know and I’m not going to pretend that it’s his best skill set. I even said ROR is better without the puck, but disagree it’s as much as some claim. Would you have thought ROR would finish in the top 5 if I asked you that 3 seasons ago (when he was Monahans age)?
.Would you have thought ROR would finish in the top 5 if I asked you that 3 seasons ago (when he was Monahans age)?
ROR was 6th in Selke voting at age 22, as a winger, the same year he won the Lady Byng. He's also been his team's tough matchup center pretty much every year since then. So yes.
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"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
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ROR was 6th in Selke voting at age 22, as a winger, the same year he won the Lady Byng. He's also been his team's tough matchup center pretty much every year since then. So yes.
6th is not that noteworthy (Monahan himself got a 1st place vote in 15-16) but I agree with the premise that O'Reilly does and always has played a better defensive game than Monahan overall. But Monahan is better offensively than O'Reilly was at the same age... O'Reilly improved between then and this year as well, so what is stopping the younger player from also improving?
Because he entered the league as a rookie, and has been around for a while, it is easy to forget that Monahan is entering his prime. 24-27 is the peak age range for forwards. Monahan has been good, but we haven't even seen him at his best yet.
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6th is not that noteworthy (Monahan himself got a 1st place vote in 15-16) but I agree with the premise that O'Reilly does and always has played a better defensive game than Monahan overall. But Monahan is better offensively than O'Reilly was at the same age... O'Reilly improved between then and this year as well, so what is stopping the younger player from also improving?
Not really noteworthy, but the point stands that he gets votes for that. Those Flames votes go to Backlund for obvious reasons.
I’m not trying to detract from what O’Reilly brings, I’ve been a career long fan of the player... I’m making the argument that Monahan isn’t far behind his level. Certainly not enough that he is detrimental defensively, or doesn’t hustle enough. If anyone has the intensity/hustle stat I’d love to see it. And he’s clearly better offensively.
6th is not that noteworthy (Monahan himself got a 1st place vote in 15-16)
Eh, 6th in voting is pretty damn noteworthy for a winger, considering it's a center award primarily.
Monahan as a center placed 20th in Selke voting in 14-15 thanks to that 1st place vote, and hasn't recieved a Selke vote since that one year.
Last year when the Flames were a top defensive team in the league, it was Lindholm (10th), Backlund (8th), Ryan (29th) who got Selke votes.
ROR, since finishing 6th, has finished 12th, 11th, 11th, 33rd, and 1st, so he's consistently drawn attention in terms of voting.
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But Monahan is better offensively than O'Reilly was at the same age... O'Reilly improved between then and this year as well, so what is stopping the younger player from also improving?
Nothing is 'stopping' the younger player from improving - but he isn't really improving. We all want for him to improve, but we should be constructing contingencies for the likely event that it does not happen.
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"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
That line was prolific before the All-Star break. They just went cold which happens sometimes and Johnny specifically lost all confidence in the playoffs.
Monahan is a hell of a hockey player with even more we haven't seen yet.
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So out of four other skaters, you single out Monahan for that? It strikes me that a broken thumb is probably not something you fight a lot with.
And Monahan doesn't "always disappear". The previous time in the POs he was just fine. 4 goals and an assist in 4 games, to lead the team. And those weren't just feeding off of Gaudreau, who had only 2 assists and no goals.
This entire thread is devoted to discussing Monahan, so yes I am calling him out on it. I believe Bennett was in around the scum as well, and he was all over it while Monahan stood off to the side. That's not the only time it's happened in the season but it's this particular instance that stood out for me. Throwing punches is not the only way to defend your teammates.
He disappears for long stretches every season, when he's not scoring, he's not noticeable at all.
), but the narrative seemed to be well founded.
