09-01-2017, 09:28 AM
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#21
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hmmmmmmm
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We really don't know if it's substance abuse. Could be a mental illness as well. Shouldn't jump to conclusions.
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09-01-2017, 09:29 AM
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#22
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In the Sin Bin
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We don't know, but his history and the context of his agent's comments don't exactly make it a large leap.
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09-01-2017, 09:45 AM
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#23
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bax
No one is calling him a Saint. The things you are describing often go hand in hand. The man needs help and suggesting he should be able to do it on his own is just ignorant.
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Of course he needs help. But in the agent's interview, he says that Mike was in rehab and checked himself out after a month. They can't force him to stay. He has to want to be there. It's 100% his own decision and he has to want it.
The agent made it clear he hasn't hit rock bottom yet, which is really sad, because he's not at the point of wanting to do what needs to be done to get clean. It will likely be the hardest thing he's ever done, to reach out and grab those hands reaching out to him.
I never suggested he do it on his own. For an addict and person who is likely suffering from some kind of mental health issue, that's unrealistic. But he has to take that first step and want to get help. That part is 100% his call.
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09-01-2017, 12:44 PM
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#24
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14
We don't know, but his history and the context of his agent's comments don't exactly make it a large leap.
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Yup. With his history, going missing has a few possible explanations, and lots of them just aren't good.
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09-01-2017, 01:14 PM
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#25
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Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Lethbridge Alberta
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I hope he can figure out what he needs to do.He can only change if he wants to.Sometimes choosing alchohol and drugs over your family may seem selfish but that's what addiction does to a person.Never kick a man when he is down.
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09-01-2017, 01:24 PM
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#26
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bax
No one is calling him a Saint. The things you are describing often go hand in hand. The man needs help and suggesting he should be able to do it on his own is just ignorant.
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Are you calling me ignorant? No kidding the guy needs help now and probably can't do it alone.
Put it this way....this stuff starts somewhere. Back when he had his first steps down this road...he didn't need someone there to counsel him not to be self destructive. He made stupid/selfish choices early on and it sounds like he was a dad when this really started. Its one thing when you are hurting yourself. Its another when you have dependents.
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09-02-2017, 10:38 AM
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#27
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm right behind you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustygoon
Are you calling me ignorant? No kidding the guy needs help now and probably can't do it alone.
Put it this way....this stuff starts somewhere. Back when he had his first steps down this road...he didn't need someone there to counsel him not to be self destructive. He made stupid/selfish choices early on and it sounds like he was a dad when this really started. Its one thing when you are hurting yourself. Its another when you have dependents.
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I'll be the one. You are ignorant.
The addition of children into the equation doesn't magically make a cognitive behaviour dysfunction go away. You acknowledge that he needs help but you want to assign blame and demonize him. People like you are one of the reasons why those with mental health and addiction issues don't get help. The public judgement of them by those who like to talk of stupid/selfish choices is why people keep this kind of stuff hidden. Your desire to assign blame is an obstacle to your understanding.
__________________
Don't fear me. Trust me.
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11-24-2017, 05:43 AM
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#29
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
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He looks very thin and unwell in that mugshot.
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11-24-2017, 05:50 AM
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#30
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Boca Raton, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC
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Ugh...why do they always, always, always end up in Florida. It's like a Mecca for ####heads.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResAlien
If we can't fall in love with replaceable bottom 6 players then the terrorists have won.
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11-24-2017, 05:56 AM
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#31
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God of Hating Twitter
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Damn, hope he finds a way to get clean, alcoholism is fking awful.
__________________
Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
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11-24-2017, 07:46 AM
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#32
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper
I'll be the one. You are ignorant.
The addition of children into the equation doesn't magically make a cognitive behaviour dysfunction go away. You acknowledge that he needs help but you want to assign blame and demonize him. People like you are one of the reasons why those with mental health and addiction issues don't get help. The public judgement of them by those who like to talk of stupid/selfish choices is why people keep this kind of stuff hidden. Your desire to assign blame is an obstacle to your understanding.
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You're guilty of simplifying too. People have free will. They make choices. Addiction isn't a binary condition, and it doesn't magically take away all responsibility for your actions. Here are some people I know:
A) Very social guy who likes to go out and drink. Marriage fell apart and he met a younger woman who is even more social and goes out almost every night. In the divorce settlement, he chose to have his kids only every second weekend so they wouldn't mess with his active social life.
B) Guy with wife and kid who drinks a lot, often alone in his garage. Also drives drunk.
C) Guy who has been heavy pot smoker and drinker since high school. Works as little as possible. Owes every landlord he's had money and now lives in a camper.
Do you think all of those guys are blameless? Hostages to some cognitive behavior dysfunction that they never had any chance to overcome? Is my choice to judge in some of these cases an obstacle to my understanding?
Personally, I don't see any contradiction in saying people need help, but they should also accept responsibility for their behavior.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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11-24-2017, 08:10 AM
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#33
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
You're guilty of simplifying too. People have free will. They make choices. Addiction isn't a binary condition, and it doesn't magically take away all responsibility for your actions. Here are some people I know:
A) Very social guy who likes to go out and drink. Marriage fell apart and he met a younger woman who is even more social and goes out almost every night. In the divorce settlement, he chose to have his kids only every second weekend so they wouldn't mess with his active social life.
B) Guy with wife and kid who drinks a lot, often alone in his garage. Also drives drunk.
C) Guy who has been heavy pot smoker and drinker since high school. Works as little as possible. Owes every landlord he's had money and now lives in a camper.
Do you think all of those guys are blameless? Hostages to some cognitive behavior dysfunction that they never had any chance to overcome? Is my choice to judge in some of these cases an obstacle to my understanding?
Personally, I don't see any contradiction in saying people need help, but they should also accept responsibility for their behavior.
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Have you been working on this reply for almost 3 months now?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgaryblood
Looks like you'll need one long before I will. May I suggest deflection king?
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11-24-2017, 08:18 AM
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#34
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm right behind you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
You're guilty of simplifying too. People have free will. They make choices. Addiction isn't a binary condition, and it doesn't magically take away all responsibility for your actions.
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Way to miss the point completely. I didn't claim that addiction was some sort of get out of jail free card as you are implying. I said that the desire to assign blame and demonize addicts/drunks/what-have-you was one of the reasons why people end up not getting help. They want to avoid stigma and scrutiny. When all the pearl clutching ramps up (won't someone think of the children, etc.) all it does is encourage people with addiction issues to keep them hidden because they don't want to be seen as the demon. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Here are some people I know:
A) Very social guy who likes to go out and drink. Marriage fell apart and he met a younger woman who is even more social and goes out almost every night. In the divorce settlement, he chose to have his kids only every second weekend so they wouldn't mess with his active social life.
B) Guy with wife and kid who drinks a lot, often alone in his garage. Also drives drunk.
C) Guy who has been heavy pot smoker and drinker since high school. Works as little as possible. Owes every landlord he's had money and now lives in a camper.
Do you think all of those guys are blameless? Hostages to some cognitive behavior dysfunction that they never had any chance to overcome? Is my choice to judge in some of these cases an obstacle to my understanding?
Personally, I don't see any contradiction in saying people need help, but they should also accept responsibility for their behaviour.
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Wow, a lot of words you tried to stuff in my mouth there. I never said addicts were blameless nor have I said that they are hostages to whichever cognitive behaviour dysfunction they engage in. If I wanted to paint an aura of blamelessness I would have trotted out the notion that addiction is a disease. It isn't. Cognitive behaviour dysfunctions can be overcome or managed through strategy and new learned behaviours.
Your choice to judge is an obstacle to your understanding because judgement serves no purpose other than to draw a quick line between right & wrong, good & bad, moral & immoral, etc. In cases of addiction this ends up being a case of "who is to blame for this mess" when the issue is more complex than blame alone. Assigning blame is one of those things humans love to do that does nothing to solve the problem. We love to judge people and place them in little convenient mental categories so we can rate ourselves as to how we compare to them. For addicts, judgement, blame, and stigma are additional obstacles to be overcome and make it harder to recover. Most addicts have trouble being honest with themselves and their families. When they consider the blame and stigma it becomes more likely that they justify their decision to keep themselves hidden and avoid treatment. The addict usually already knows they have messed up; shame can be a big driver in continuing addiction.
At no time did I say there was a contradiction between saying people need help but should also accept responsibility for their behaviour.
__________________
Don't fear me. Trust me.
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11-24-2017, 08:19 AM
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#35
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Mckenzie Towne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Do you think all of those guys are blameless? Hostages to some cognitive behavior dysfunction that they never had any chance to overcome? Is my choice to judge in some of these cases an obstacle to my understanding?
Personally, I don't see any contradiction in saying people need help, but they should also accept responsibility for their behavior.
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In a sense, yes - they are hostages, until they can fully admit it. In some cases it requires people to hit a very low rock bottom. In some cases that's still not enough. There are different levels of bottoms depending on the person.
Alcoholics/addicts generally have addictive thinking long before they get into and abuse any substance. Alcohol and drugs are just a symptom. There are very few people that get help that would consider themselves saints leading up to that point. There are people with far worse pasts than Mike that have recovered.
Alcoholics and addicts certainly aren't blameless, but it's a serious disease that is still largely misunderstood, which is evident in your comment. And I don't mean to offend by saying that, as you're certainly not alone, but it's just the reality.
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11-24-2017, 12:35 PM
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#36
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Regina
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Yikes he looks rough
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11-24-2017, 12:43 PM
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#37
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
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what's the over/under on when he gets one of those tear drop tattoos?
__________________
Fan of the Flames, where being OK has become OK.
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11-24-2017, 12:45 PM
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#38
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc
He looks very thin and unwell in that mugshot.
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He has always looked thin and unwell.
I'd say he looks healthier in the mugshot than he did in his player photo with the Coyotes.
__________________
Turn up the good, turn down the suck!
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11-24-2017, 01:30 PM
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#39
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
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^ Yikes. It looks like he has been unwell for a while.
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11-24-2017, 03:10 PM
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#40
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Regina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgaryblood
We really don't know if it's substance abuse. Could be a mental illness as well. Shouldn't jump to conclusions.
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Those 2 things go hand in hand often. Very likely a combo of both
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