[PGT] Avs 6 Flames 2

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

I can’t believe we wasted our limited UFA chips on Neal. Ugh - free agency is an ugly game to join.

I can’t believe Neal has performed this poorly. I admittedly loved the signing at the time but it has been disastrous.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I'm pretty much exactly where you are. Bednar and the Avs are just laughing at how easy it is right now. They know the Flames are the slower team and by forcing them to over-pursue pucks with an ineffective forecheck, the Flames have left the neutral zone completely wide open and the speedy Avalanche forwards are crushing the Flames.

Bednar is playing playoff style hockey right now while Peters is still in regular season mode. He's made it difficult for the Flames to generate any speed through the middle of the ice and have nullified any attack in transition. The Flames should be doing the exact same thing. Trap, clog up the neutral zone and make this a war in the trenches. Stop playing the way Nathan Mackinnon and co want to play, make it difficult for him to do anything like Avs have done to Gaudreau and co.

The thing about the trap is that it is a difficult style of hockey to play as it relies on shift to shift hustle and discipline.

The reason trap or defensive coaches have reputations as task Masters is in large part because that is what it takes to instill the work ethic necessary to play that way and win.

It's not like Columbus is beating Tampa by accident, they are fundamentally out working the lightning in all 3 zones. Part of that is speed which I think the flames just simply don't have, but the other and more important part is effort and discipline.

Discipline is what begets effort, and right now the flames are playing undisciplined hockey. Usually you hear that in regards to penalties but it shows up all over the ice it you know where to look.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

If James Neal was about winning he should ask to be scratched. His lack of speed is a complete hinderance in this series. Couple that with the fact hat he's barely mucking it up at all and I have no clue what he thinks he's doing to deserve more icetime. Czarnik please.

Doesn't help that he's playing in a series that's not tailor made for his game. He's slow and lacks any pace to his game. While he's off trying to finish a check in the offensive zone, Mackinnon and Nieto or whoever are already in the Flames zone burying the puck in the back of the net. You're right, a Czarnik or a Dube would be way better options in a series like this.

[calgaryfox]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

My three and half year old son has been watching hockey for two weeks and he knows you don’t win the playoffs giving up 50 plus shots.

And he would probably beat Monohan and Johnny into submission in a pillow fight.

[Huntingwhale]

Horrible game. Glad I went to bed when I did. The first line was brutal. Absolutely brutal and will be the main reason we lose the series unless they show up. Gaudreau has been neutralized. Lindholm forgot how to shoot, although he know how to hit.

And god forbid anyone criticize Monahan around here and not take flack for it. He's been terrible for months now and continues to show why people question him. Great stat lines, sure. Terrible compete level. I wonder if there's examples of other players throughout NHL history who put up good numbers, yet do nothing else to contribute.

Line 1 needs to step up in a big way. God bless Smith, because this could have easily been a 10 goal blowout.

I've given up on James Neal doing anything to contribute consistently. We just have to accept he's now our boat anchor contract going forward. The whole flip the switch at playoff time is such a cop out. He plain sucks most of the time.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sure but on that shift last night, he had space and time....and made three of the worst decisions/passes he possibly could have. It also swung momentum right back to the Avs. It was awful.

Like I said, I honestly do not recall one guy being that bad in such a short time frame and then add in that its supposedly your best offensive player.....ugh.

Good players should be making players around them better...we hear it all the time...he isn't right now and hasnt for a long while now.

Its why size matters in the playoffs too, though that was shot down all regular season my many many of the "game has changed" people. Maybe the 82 games is a bit different, but when you get into the grind of the post season, being able to hold/create your ice is so important.

I do not disagree.
I'm saying Gaudreau has had no help. Nobody driving to open spots. Nobody using speed to push the D back and create gaps.
Maybe that is the problem, and why the first line fizzled down the stretch, as things start to tighten up.
Also just saying now we find out the answer. Do they or don't they?
I don't know

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I'm pretty much exactly where you are. Bednar and the Avs are just laughing at how easy it is right now. They know the Flames are the slower team and by forcing them to over-pursue pucks with an ineffective forecheck, the Flames have left the neutral zone completely wide open and the speedy Avalanche forwards are crushing the Flames.



Bednar is playing playoff style hockey right now while Peters is still in regular season mode. He's made it difficult for the Flames to generate any speed through the middle of the ice and have nullified any attack in transition. The Flames should be doing the exact same thing. Trap, clog up the neutral zone and make this a war in the trenches. Stop playing the way Nathan Mackinnon and co want to play, make it difficult for him to do anything like Avs have done to Gaudreau and co.

I’m not pointing fingers at Peters but Bednar has at least one previous NHL playoff series under his belt. That could be a factor to date. I’m confident that Peters can adjust particularly with last change but the challenge will be to win another game in Denver with McKinnon unchained

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Doesn't help that he's playing in a series that's not tailor made for his game. He's slow and lacks any pace to his game. While he's off trying to finish a check in the offensive zone, Mackinnon and Nieto or whoever are already in the Flames zone burying the puck in the back of the net. You're right, a Czarnik or a Dube would be way better options in a series like this.

You've touched on a major systems issue from the flames in this series and that's no back pressure in transition. It's especially noticeable on lines 1 and 3.

One of the reasons the avs always look to have an odd man rush is that whatever number they are attacking with the flames are a man short on the back check.

Conversely one reason the flames top line can't find any space is they can't outskate the back pressure from the avs.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The national media seems to have the story nailed down that one of the things Peters and Neal were discussing was icetime.

If that's correct I wonder where the team goes from here with Neal. Was he really petitioning for more icetime? What happens if he doesn't get it? Hard to imagine Tre would let Peters scratch Neal in his first of 5 season with the flames, But where do you go from here with him?

A lot of coaches and managers get trapped by the sunken cost bias. They've spent X amount of money on a guy, and he's disappointing. But instead of writing it off as a sunk cost, they double down and persist in trying to recoup their payment. They let a mistake in the past compound their problems by making bad decisions in the present.

I really hope Treliving and Peters can rise above that. I really hope they can step back and cooly assess where Neal is today, regardless of the cost of acquiring him.

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

I can’t believe we wasted our limited UFA chips on Neal. Ugh - free agency is an ugly game to join.

A couple of what-ifs: The broadcast crew mentioned last night that the Flames made an offer to Matt Calvert, but Colorado matched and Calvert chose the Avs. We also know that the Flames made a big pitch for Ryan Reaves, but Vegas matched and he stayed.

I'm liking a Flames roster with Reaves + Calvert instead of Neal.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The thing about the trap is that it is a difficult style of hockey to play as it relies on shift to shift hustle and discipline.

The reason trap or defensive coaches have reputations as task Masters is in large part because that is what it takes to instill the work ethic necessary to play that way and win.

It's not like Columbus is beating Tampa by accident, they are fundamentally out working the lightning in all 3 zones. Part of that is speed which I think the flames just simply don't have, but the other and more important part is effort and discipline.

Discipline is what begets effort, and right now the flames are playing undisciplined hockey. Usually you hear that in regards to penalties but it shows up all over the ice it you know where to look.

The Flames are taking a lot of penalties because they're constantly chasing the play. Fantenberg took that 5 on 3 penalty because he was caught reaching on Nathan Mackinnon. I don't blame him because no one is catching Mackinnon at top speed. So if they plant 4-5 guys right in the neutral zone, at the very least, Mackinnon and co won't be able to gain all that speed through the middle.

I also disagree that the Flames aren't capable of winning with the trap. The Flames scored the most short handed goals in the league this season because they've planted 4 guys at their blue line and feasted off of turnovers. They just need to do the same thing, but at the Avalanche blue line instead. I think this is the only way to win right now because clearly the Flames can't out speed the Avalanche.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Horrible game. Glad I went to bed when I did. The first line was brutal. Absolutely brutal and will be the main reason we lose the series unless they show up. Gaudreau has been neutralized. Lindholm forgot how to shoot, although he know how to hit.

And god forbid anyone criticize Monahan around here and not take flack for it. He's been terrible for months now and continues to show why people question him. Great stat lines, sure. Terrible compete level. I wonder if there's examples of other players throughout NHL history who put up good numbers, yet do nothing else to contribute.

Craig Janney comes to mind, as a kid I recall him being non existent physically and wouldn’t recognize the other side of the red line(defensive zone). Low compete level, almost tin man like.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I’m not pointing fingers at Peters but Bednar has at least one previous NHL playoff series under his belt. That could be a factor to date. I’m confident that Peters can adjust particularly with last change but the challenge will be to win another game in Denver with McKinnon unchained

I do too, but he doesn't have much room for error. Lose on Wednesday and we'll have one bullet left in the chamber.

[Toonage]

Plenty of hope this morning.

I hope they are on the ice today for a full practice.

I hope to see Czarnik in for Neal. Who cares about trying to take the body when its a reaction to being outrun. Let the Avs try and chase for a bit.

I hope to see 3M split up. Its never been a great line on the road. Tkachuk & Backlund can stay, but move Lindholm down there, move Bennett up to 1L and Frolik to the 4L

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Random musings...

- Sam Bennett is taking more steps in his development. He is more of a leader on the ice than Sean Monahan. Time to get this kid back to centre, and really work with him on developing his offensive game and gaining offensive confidence.

- Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau are failing this team. They aren’t dictating anything.

- Mikael Backlund is facing his first true “elite” level challenge. A 7 game series against an elite player, and he is getting absolutely decimated.

- TJ Brodie is being exposed

- I’m really happy for Mike Smith. I’ve never been a fan of his as a Flame, but to see a dude struggle for significant amounts of time only to show up when it matters the most is why I watch sports. That level of drama/excitement is truly enjoyable to witness.

- This is gut-check time for a lot of players on this team. They’ve already cut their teeth on the playoffs, Game 4 is the game where they need to take control and step up.

- I’m genuinely surprised by Matthew Tkachuk. He needs to do a better job on every inch of the ice.

- I’m a huge James Neal fan, but his foot speed is being exposed. I’ll cheer for him until he isn’t here anymore, but now is the time for him to step up.

- Mark Jankowski should not be a centre.

- Andrew Mangiapane is a gem.

- I am really intrigued to watch Game 4. We are going to learn a lot about this team in Game 4.

I think we learned a lot about this team in Game 3.

Other than that, I really like your post.

[Harry Lime]

Wouldn't mind seeing Dube and\or Czarnik in, and I don't care who comes out.

Would very much like to see Valimaki\Stone in, and Brodie\Fatenberg sit.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You've touched on a major systems issue from the flames in this series and that's no back pressure in transition. It's especially noticeable on lines 1 and 3.

One of the reasons the avs always look to have an odd man rush is that whatever number they are attacking with the flames are a man short on the back check.

Conversely one reason the flames top line can't find any space is they can't outskate the back pressure from the avs.

Yes you're completely right. Loubardias on the Fan right now just mentioned that he was speaking to a couple scouts after the game and they said the Flames are over committing trying to hit the opposition. In other words, the Flames are trying to be physical and it's taking them out of the play while the Avalanche are playing river hockey on the other side.

In my opinion, If the Flames just sit relax on the forecheck, less hitting, then at the very least they'll have all 5 players actually in play instead of skating hard back just to fish the puck out of your own net.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A couple of what-ifs: The broadcast crew mentioned last night that the Flames made an offer to Matt Calvert, but Colorado matched and Calvert chose the Avs. We also know that the Flames made a big pitch for Ryan Reaves, but Vegas matched and he stayed.

I'm liking a Flames roster with Reaves + Calvert instead of Neal.

Yeah - another notable "what if" to me right now is the rumoured Zucker deal that fell through. When we played Minny last, he was playing the same style as Bennett has been - a heavy and fast north-south game. We would've looked a lot better with him, even though Frolik has been far from a primary issue himself.

Seems as if Treliving has identified the problem with many of our rumoured misses - hopefully he solves the puzzle.

[bubbsy]

I actually don't think the reason for the flames losing is as easy as "poor compete". I actually think a lot of players are playing hard. Monahan/Lindholm are playing more physical than they have all season, so I firmly believe they are trying a lot.

This is very much an Xs and Os issue in my view. Flames are having terrible puck placement, especially in the offensive zone which is allowing the avs (who have come in fully prepared with a heck of a game plan) to transition and come in blazing speed. I think that's likely why the flames d appear to be giving up the line so easy. I don't believe that's their desired way to defend, however, are forced to the avs quick defence to offence transition.

Flames need to do a way better job of what they are doing with the puck in the offensive zone. I think they are being too desperate to try to create something out of nothing, that's causing this. Need to be far for disciplined, if there isn't a play the puck should go into the corners, with a strategic forecheck/fallback to slow down the avs attempt to breakout. Force them to d to d pass, skate the puck behind the net, etc, so that the flames can slow them down as they enter the neutral zone.

It's easy to blame the top line, but let's face it, they're approaching almost 8 weeks of being horse poop. In that time they have played ONE good game and that was against the AHL devils team no less. However, the above can be said for the 3M line, and the bottom 6 too.

Flames need to play a MUCH more disciplined puck management game not just in the d and neutral zones, but in the offensive zone. If there's no play, place the puck appropriately giving the avs the most difficult break out possible.

I have been extremely disappointed by Peters coaching. The lack of ANY adjustment in their gameplay between game 2 and 3 is unacceptable. Flames got beat by the same things in both games, only difference being the avs clicked on the PP.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I do not disagree.
I'm saying Gaudreau has had no help. Nobody driving to open spots. Nobody using speed to push the D back and create gaps.
Maybe that is the problem, and why the first line fizzled down the stretch, as things start to tighten up.
Also just saying now we find out the answer. Do they or don't they?
I don't know

I agree with this. While Gaudreau didn't have a good game (nobody did other than Smith) he's getting absolutely no help. Monahan can't skate and Lindholm can't hold on to the puck nevermind create anything. Those two did absolutely nothing offensively the whole game.

[GeoRock]

Man I gotta agree with Lou on the Fan this morning. The old cliche of playing your own game is so true. Flames are getting completely drawn into the Avs game, which is not one of pure puck moving skill. I really hope Peters sets them up for getting back to their style of hockey next game. Win that one and we're back at square one in Calgary.