The perplexity in your stance is that you're totally behind a bunch of megalomaniac billionaire owners to hold a city hostage for their own financial gain with no care for the city beyond selling tickets and improving their own net worth but for some reason, you have an extreme distaste for someone who is by definition working for the city doing their job.
Holy drama..."holding the city hostage" to me would equate to asking for 100% funding or we are leaving. The Flame's "greedy owners" aren't even asking for what Edmonton got. And they aren't even threatening (at this point) to move. All they are saying is that they will continue to play in the Saddledome as the economics of the deal offered by the city doesn't work for them (which is their right as owners). It comes down to a philosophical difference between the Flames and the City with respect to how much of a partnership it should be.
The Flames (and I agree) believe that a state of the art arena is something the City should support financially as it is a valuable part of a vibrant city. Others seem to think an arena is nothing more than a toy house built by billionaires where overpaid hockey players skate (which is an equally valid opinion).
However, to me, this rant against the owners comes across as spiteful and jealous rage more than anything. People have to get over the fact that enticing "rich people" to invest in communities is a good thing. Capital is mobile and will be invested where it makes sense. We should be attracting investment, now more than ever.
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Given almost 50 pages of arena debate here - I thought I would derail this thread with this video! Both Nenshi and King should watch it 100 times and then not emerge from a room until they have an arena deal!
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Holy drama..."holding the city hostage" to me would equate to asking for 100% funding or we are leaving. The Flame's "greedy owners" aren't even asking for what Edmonton got. And they aren't even threatening (at this point) to move. All they are saying is that they will continue to play in the Saddledome as the economics of the deal offered by the city doesn't work for them (which is their right as owners). It comes down to a philosophical difference between the Flames and the City with respect to how much of a partnership it should be.
The Flames (and I agree) believe that a state of the art arena is something the City should support financially as it is a valuable part of a vibrant city. Others seem to think an arena is nothing more than a toy house built by billionaires where overpaid hockey players skate (which is an equally valid opinion).
However, to me, this rant against the owners comes across as spiteful and jealous rage more than anything. People have to get over the fact that enticing "rich people" to invest in communities is a good thing. Capital is mobile and will be invested where it makes sense. We should be attracting investment, now more than ever.
Aren't they asking for more than Edmonton got. The 850/450 split of Calgary next certainly was. And we don't know what their offer was on Vic Park.
The smoking gun here to me is that lack if public facing by Flames ownership.
Having King on point and bringing in Bettman to be the bad guy illustrates the lack of appetite they have for the public opinion attached to this posturing.
Aren't these guys supposed to be pillars of the community. They were there at city hall in the gallery when King gave his presentation to council. Where are they now? Why don't they want to formally attach their names to this? Why don't they want to appear in public or on camera if they feel so strongly about this process that they would walk away from negotiating with the city?
Allan Markin is a former Citizen of the Year for the city of Calgary. Why isn't he front and center here selling his vision to Calgarians?
Seems... cowardly. They want the city to bend over for them but aren't willing to attach their own public reputations to the proposal.
I said 1/3 public, 1/3 ticket tax, 1/3 owner - and that's what's reported.
And that would be fair, and probably have the deal already agreed upon, but that was not the deal reported. If they were to deem this area a CRL zone, they would have stated that. Instead they suggested they would parcel the money out with the expectation this would be paid back, which doesn't sound like a CRL, but sounds more like a long term government secured mortgage.
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With respect to the "public portion to be paid back" we can speculate about what that means. If it's a CRL - which seems to be the most oft discussed option that is taxpayer money. I don't know what the quarrel is here.
Speculate all you want, but if this were the case why wouldn't they just identify it as such? City Council would have to zone this area as such, so this would be a process already under discussion. Unless they are doing this really quietly, this hasn't been proposed.
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On the site area, I said there was some commercial use lands, if you had read further you would have seen I said if they wanted something more substantial, they should maybe discuss the other side of Olympic Way as well.
And when you said some, you obviously didn't consider the scope of the land available. An 80' wide space on the one side of the proposed arena footprint is not suitable for anything. On the other side of Olympic Way is land dedicated to the BMO Centre. It should be mentioned that Nenshi suggests expansion of the BMO, on the tax payer's dime. So there really isn't any space there. Again, this space is barely adequate for an arena. It is about 60% the size of the land used for Edmonton's arena. So unless they are spilling over into the Rundle Ruins, other development opportunities are greatly limited.
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Why are you so hostile?
Not hostile at all. Why are you so defensive?
I think Nenshi saw this playing out, as part of his September 11th announcement on his website he states, "The City will never walk away from the table and I will work hard to reach the right deal." He obviously knew the Flames had a drop dead offer on the table and made sure to make it public that he would never walk away from the negotiation table. He never said he would not force the other parties to walk away, which it appears he successfully did. If it is true that the Flames submitted a proposal on July 31st, and Nenshi refused to acknowledge it, then it is clear this has been part of his strategy.
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They didn't pay directly for the building, but the city received a percentage of revenue from the building's operation until the lease was renegotiated in 1994.
The City of Calgary established the Saddledome Foundation in 1983 and leased the arena for 50-years to the non-profit organization. Its mandate was to "oversee the operation in a manner that protects taxpayers and benefits amateur sports at the local, provincial and national level". The foundation is made up of a board of nine directors: three appointed by the city, three appointed by the province, and one each appointed by the Calgary Olympic Development Association (now WinSport Canada), Hockey Canada and the Calgary Exhibition and Stampede. The foundation contracted the Stampede to manage the arena, and through its lease agreements with the Stampede and the Flames, earned 15% of gross concession sales, 50% of net income from luxury suites and executive seating and investment income on the arena's revenues. The Flames signed a 20-year lease in 1983 that earned them 70% of advertising revenues and 90% of ticket revenues. The Stampede earned 85% of concession revenues and all revenue from parking.
As part of the 1994 deal with the city, the Flames bought out the Stampede's contract for $20 million and took over management of the facility. While the city and Saddledome Foundation paid for the 1994–95 renovations, the new agreement required the Flames to pay for future arena maintenance and repairs, as well as any further renovations. The Flames agreed to manage the arena for 20 years and to contribute $14.5 million toward amateur sport in the city over that time. The Saddledome Foundation retains the responsibility of distributing funds to amateur sport. From its inception through 2007, it had allocated over $20 million toward this cause.
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Turn up the good, turn down the suck!
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When has Nenshi berated Murray Edwards in public? Or Clay Riddell? Or Markin? Or any of them? Pissed on the grave of Harley Hotchkiss?
The Flames' conduct through this arena negotiation has been laughable. We should have a new facility six months into construction, and we don't because Ken King and his crew have been incompetent.
Obviously, the city and Nenshi have done something to lead the owners to their present position. "Berated" might not be the right term, but something is wrong with the relationship at this point, and with Nenshi's history of speaking before thinking, I don't think I am wrong.
I agree that we should have a building started by now, but billionaires generally don't become billionaires by not getting the best deal possible for themselves, hence the present situation.
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If the flames offer is 1/3,1/3,1/3 then the flames should be shouting it from the roof tops as that is a politically sellable case. The fact the flames didn't go public with their offer like means it's much closer to the 2/3rds city 1/3 flames of Calgary next.
Can you provide some evidence there is some value?
Most economists/studies suggest minimal net direct economic, as in maybe 1/10 of 1 percent. So negligible, but not zero or negative.
I don't know the value of Calgary's economy.
What is the net benefit to civic pride? How do you quantify that? Winnipeg makes for good reading.
Last edited by EldrickOnIce; 09-13-2017 at 10:46 AM.
I think the majority can afford Hitmen tickets, no?
True. But we don't need a new arena for the Hitmen to play in. Just spitballing, I'd guess 80 per cent of the attendees for the various events at a new arena would be the wealthiest 20 per cent of citizens.
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Originally Posted by CroFlames
It sucks, but if you like NHL hockey, public money is going to the rink in some form or another because all other NHL/NFL/MLB/MLS cities have ruined it for the rest of us. Calgary can't be the only city out of dozens that doesn't help their pro sports club with a new rink.
Three of the last four arena projects in Canada (Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal) were built with private money. Some owners manage to extort public funding for their private businesses. Others don't.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
...Sadly...all of us will be exhausted as well in the months/years leading up to an ultimate deal being done...it will be messy but it will get done.
Apologies for the long note
Exactly my thoughts. Physicals are tomorrow and by Saturday all of us will once again find much better things to discuss on this board. I will choose to ignore this hamfisted rhetorical slapfest for the next several months and it will be easy to do so when the Flames are playing hockey.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
King talking about the new arena predates Nenshi as mayor. Yes, that's right, the flames have been farting around with this arena since before Nenshi was some insurmountable obstacle.
The smoking gun here to me is that lack if public facing by Flames ownership.
Having King on point and bringing in Bettman to be the bad guy illustrates the lack of appetite they have for the public opinion attached to this posturing.
Aren't these guys supposed to be pillars of the community. They were there at city hall in the gallery when King gave his presentation to council. Where are they now? Why don't they want to formally attach their names to this? Why don't they want to appear in public or on camera if they feel so strongly about this process that they would walk away from negotiating with the city?
Allan Markin is a former Citizen of the Year for the city of Calgary. Why isn't he front and center here selling his vision to Calgarians?
Seems... cowardly. They want the city to bend over for them but aren't willing to attach their own public reputations to the proposal.
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Let's be clear about something as well.
King talking about the new arena predates Nenshi as mayor. Yes, that's right, the flames have been farting around with this arena since before Nenshi was some insurmountable obstacle.
Hmmm, and wasn't someone just speaking about high minded rhetoric and not being aggressively disingenuous? And then they roll out these turd blossoms? Flash, you needn't worry about looking like an embarrassing hyper partisan with the kind of simple minded rhetoric presented above, you just proved to be everything you just claimed someone else to be.
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Well, for one, the arena itself will only hold ~20,000. But the team's existence in the city brings hundreds of thousands (if not more) to local drinking establishments, particularly during a playoff run. That's incremental revenue driven by a local sports team.
Well, for one, the arena itself will only hold ~20,000. But the team's existence in the city brings hundreds of thousands (if not more) to local drinking establishments, particularly during a playoff run. That's incremental revenue driven by a local sports team.
Not according to the study:
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"Economists say the biggest reason sports teams don’t have much impact is that they don’t tend to spur new spending. Most people have a limited entertainment budget, so the dollars they are spending when they go to a game is money they would have spent elsewhere, maybe even at a restaurant or small businesses where more money would have stayed in the community."
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Well unfortunately for you, this is what the role of a Mayor has been, is and always will be. Deal with it.
The perplexity in your stance is that you're totally behind a bunch of megalomaniac billionaire owners to hold a city hostage for their own financial gain with no care for the city beyond selling tickets and improving their own net worth but for some reason, you have an extreme distaste for someone who is by definition working for the city and taxpayers.
lol. You really really really like the mayor don't you? I don't have distaste...I have distrust. His role is to look after the best interest of the city and the taxpayer, I see it as looking after his best interest and selling it as working for the city and the tax payer.
Well, for one, the arena itself will only hold ~20,000. But the team's existence in the city brings hundreds of thousands (if not more) to local drinking establishments, particularly during a playoff run. That's incremental revenue driven by a local sports team.
Studies show that's just money they would have spent on other entertainment options (restaurants, movies, etc.).
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
King talking about the new arena predates Nenshi as mayor. Yes, that's right, the flames have been farting around with this arena since before Nenshi was some insurmountable obstacle.
This is big for me too. It's the hubris of CSEC thinking that their offer is the best and works for everyone. It's clear that they didn't do their market research, identify the wants and needs of various stakeholders and their appetite for a deal in advance. CSEC made the first move - this is on them for not doing it right.
