CBE Results in Decline

[CliffFletcher]

Since we’re seeing these educational declines in other provinces and countries, the obvious explanation is the covid school closures and loss of in-class learnings. There’s a reason education experts and child welfare advocates implored jurisdictions to do everything possible to keep schools operating in-person during the pandemic. We have a wealth of data showing the loss of even a few weeks of instruction (and for many students during the pandemic, remote learning meant no learning) affects learning outcomes for years. Especially for the weakest students.

[CarlLester]

Originally Posted by smithtofuhr86

Not anymore as of this year. Agreed it was certainly under capacity for a few years but starting in (2020-2021) they increased the boundaries to start taking pressure off of the High School in Seton and have slowly increased the boundaries Southward. I believe they started going from Douglasdale and have increased from there to the point this year (2023-2024) the school has saw a significant increase in the population amount which is good because as you probably are aware it can certainly handle it.

Schools like Scarlett have also started putting their foot down a bit and not taking kids that live close but aren't designated for them as much anymore which has helped. Henry Wisewood reminds me of Brad Treliving, always willing to listen and negotiable with new potential students. They certainly have an open door policy.

Not anymore either. We just did some high schools tours with our oldest and Wisewood is full and not accepting transfers (outside of IB, etc). Same story at Scarlett.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by CarlLester

Not anymore either. We just did some high schools tours with our oldest and Wisewood is full and not accepting transfers (outside of IB, etc). Same story at Scarlett.

Churchill is the same thing up North. It's confusing to understand how students can get to Churchill without basically starting at specific elementary schools to be accepted directly to specific Jr High to be accepted directly to SWC.

Things like this are also a huge reason why the whole CBE experience is an absolute adventure from the micro and macro level. Side quests like finding appropriate BAC programs and still being on a 2-3 year wait list after being on a wait list for the last 18-24 months.

Too many people up top just say dumb things that make it sound like they're completely out of touch with the true issue. Like a bunch of (ironically speaking) academics trying tocreate then solve a theoretic issue rather than a bunch of people trying to practically solve a real issue. Some of the crap coming from principals, school board members etc. are idiotic.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I know what they're supposed to be for. But I have some teachers on social media, and I occasionally kinda pissed off at what shows up on a PD day in their feeds. I don't blame teachers though. It's management and above creating chaos and adding seemingly unnecessary complexity for parents with kids to have kids in school.

My oldest daughter is a Teacher and she constantly complains about the management and bureaucracy.

Its not 'The Government' and its not 'The Teachers' its the 'Middle Man.'

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, well that's just it. A no-change contract is completely untenable to the union or teachers, so they'll always find an issue to squeeze. Once all the juice is squeezed out of the other issues, it'll be back to class sizes. We're just on a loop.

Again...my daughter is a Teacher, her class size is the exact same as when I went to school in the 90s.

So class sizes appear to have remained constant while Budgets have increased.

So instead of them bitching about 'class sizes' how about they ask where that money went?

The Teachers aren't the problem. They're doing the best they can with the resources they're provided in the environment they operate in.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

No accountability on the students. Can't fail 'em, can't discipline 'em.

No school like the old school. Now, back to my cloud yelling.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

Again...my daughter is a Teacher, her class size is the exact same as when I went to school in the 90s.

So class sizes appear to have remained constant while Budgets have increased.

So instead of them bitching about 'class sizes' how about they ask where that money went?

I get that you’re just using the standard rhetoric here but come on man, you seriously can’t figure out where at least some of that increase budget went?

Unless you as an accountant are making the same today as accountants did in the nineties I’m sure you can put 2 and 2 together. Or if you can’t, then maybe that’s a good argument for why students need smaller class sizes.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I get that you’re just using the standard rhetoric here but come on man, you seriously can’t figure out where at least some of that increase budget went?

Unless you as an accountant are making the same today as accountants did in the nineties I’m sure you can put 2 and 2 together. Or if you can’t, then maybe that’s a good argument for why students need smaller class sizes.

Theres lots of places, but sorry man...Teachers make more money, inflation and a bloated administration.

But lets not pretend that they're a 'slighted' group. Their wages are good, their class sizes generally havent changed.

I do empathize with Teachers having to deal with their Administration. That seems like a nightmare.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

Theres lots of places, but sorry man...Teachers make more money, inflation and a bloated administration.

But lets not pretend that they're a 'slighted' group. Their wages are good, their class sizes generally havent changed.

I do empathize with Teachers having to deal with their Administration. That seems like a nightmare.

You still haven’t explained why you feel the class sizes aren’t an issue. They’re the “the same as they’ve always been” isn’t an argument.

Why is it that the people who complain when teachers say class sizes are too big never seem to go after the private/charter schools for having classes that are too small considering the additional strain that kind of inefficiency would theoretically put on the system overall?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You still haven’t explained why you feel the class sizes aren’t an issue. They’re the “the same as they’ve always been” isn’t an argument.

Why is it that the people who complain when teachers say class sizes are too big never seem to go after the private/charter schools for having classes that are too small considering the additional strain that kind of inefficiency would theoretically put on the system overall?

What?

Because Class sizes havent changed in 20 years? No one has expressed a compelling argument on what 'ideal class size' is?

Its just a strawman argument. You havent explained how many is the right number.

And Private/Charter schools can do whatever they want for what their members are willing to pay for. I cant comment on that.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

What?

Because Class sizes havent changed in 20 years? No one has expressed a compelling argument on what 'ideal class size' is?

Its just a strawman argument. You havent explained how many is the right number.

Oh brother you’re getting a little desperate here. It’s not unreasonable to suggest that smaller class sizes give student more 1 on 1 time with their teachers, which I don’t think anyone would argue isn’t a benefit to students. You’re arguing that class sizes are about the same as when you were in school and are using that as your bar for what is sufficient. For arguments sake let’s say that that number is ideal, as you know I’m well aware of what the class sizes were when you went to school and the last data collected before the UCP kiboshed tracking those numbers clearly indicates that there are many classrooms in this province that were above those figures. So I guess my question to you would be at what point would you consider class sizes to be detrimental since you don’t think teachers can be trusted and the government refuses to track data that would help non-teachers make an educated determination?

And Private/Charter schools can do whatever they want for what their members are willing to pay for. I cant comment on that.

They get tax payer money while taking teachers away from the public systems for the benefit of a small portion of the population, I’d say they’re fair game to criticize.

[Harry Lime]

I helped a teacher organize her classroom one night a couple of years ago. The class could physically fit 32 desks, and we had to figure out space for 40. Kids were sitting at the teachers desk and on high chairs stolen from a science room, using cabinets as a desk.

Also, the number is secondary to the needs of the students, which are becoming numerous. It's good that diagnosis of potential learning difficulties is getting better, but teachers are asked to account and adjust to all of them.

Also, the way that marking is done in classes like English is completely bonkers. Outcome based learning tailed to individual students and they can rewrite as many times as they like. Add that on top of illiterate students being pushed through or missed, and rampant cheating everywhere, and it's the responsibility of the teacher to catch it.

Now attach levels of bureaucracy to that. Nightmare.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Since we’re seeing these educational declines in other provinces and countries, the obvious explanation is the covid school closures and loss of in-class learnings. There’s a reason education experts and child welfare advocates implored jurisdictions to do everything possible to keep schools operating in-person during the pandemic. We have a wealth of data showing the loss of even a few weeks of instruction (and for many students during the pandemic, remote learning meant no learning) affects learning outcomes for years. Especially for the weakest students.

If that was the case, then wouldn't there be a discrepancy between jurisdictions with longer school closures and those with shorter or no closures? Because the most recent OECD data shows no real distinction in resilience of performance based on school closure length. In anything, there's actually a slight negative correlation, where the jurisdictions with a higher percentage of students experiencing 3+ month closures were actually more likely to have resilient performance in math and reading compared to pre-pandemic than jurisdictions with shorter closures.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that educational performance declines in most countries long predate the pandemic.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by Locke

What?

Because Class sizes havent changed in 20 years? No one has expressed a compelling argument on what 'ideal class size' is?

Its just a strawman argument. You havent explained how many is the right number.

And Private/Charter schools can do whatever they want for what their members are willing to pay for. I cant comment on that.

How can you say that when you only have an anecdote as to what class sizes are? Do you know what the average class size is?

The fact of the matter is that performance is dropping while funding is decreasing. Correlation does not imply causation, but let's look at the numbers here and be objective.

When we see that spending has dropped from 2nd in the country in 2011 to 10th in the country in 2020 despite having above-average capita GDP per person, and we ALSO see performance dropping, something seems a bit fishy.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Probably need more PD days.

Hahahaha… so funny. Now do one about summers off! Oh my belly is hurting from laughing.

Or better yet go coach a Timbits or Tier 4 U9 or U11 hockey practice and experience 1st hand the wide range of attention span, intellect, and interest children have for 1 hour a week.

If you had to teach them in ways that “actually enable learning” all day rather than just helping them understand hockey for an hour you would beg for your job back, because the crappy pay sure isn’t going to lure you to stay.

Who knows, maybe you might even understand that professional development enabling better learning is a needed break for both sides.

People who crap on teacher are the way cynical cry babies who chew out minor or rec hockey refs. They are tone deaf to the fact that these are crappy thankless jobs that a lot of people do not want, including them.

[Point Blank]

There’s a lot of non educators here having some very strong opinions about PD days, Beaverbrook, etc. As I said in my previous post, I’m a teacher currently working for an overflowing high school and I feel like I have some points to contribute.

- PD days are professional development days. These days can be moved to the summer if you want, but we don’t get paid in the summer. Education evolves as the science of education is very complex- many learners learn in predictable trajectories but MANY do not and we need ongoing training to support those students. As with any kind of training, it’s as much as each individual teacher wants to put into it. Any PD can be as valuable or not valuable depending on how the teacher decides to receive it. I personally don’t think it’s right to have dated practices for an evolving world and an increasingly diverse classroom. But the loudest voices are often the most disgruntled so you’ll hear more from teachers who decide not to take any valuable talking points from PD. But there are many who do take PD very seriously.

- Beaverbrook was under capacity because it was undergoing renovations and it was unsafe to be near capacity at that time. You’ll see this occur with Diefenbaker in the next few years as they’ll be under renovations as well. Numbers for Beaverbrook is back up and will soon be at capacity as surrounding schools are now full, including EP Scarlett and Henry Wise Wood. I wonder for those who wish to bring this up as to imply that there is space, why they wouldn’t bring up how new schools such as Nelson Mandela and JCS are beyond capacity and North Trail will be full next year after literally opening just this year to grade 10’s and 11’s. Or why Churchill is getting 6x portables installed to meet enrollment growth.

- Funding has indeed increased, but funding PER student has decreased. Especially under the UCP that keep touting how they’re increasing funding- it’s not catching up with increased enrollment growth. Class sizes are slowly in increasing as a result. This is felt most strongly in elementary classes, where numbers went from mid 20’s to 30’s with more IPP’s and EAL’s.

- Class sizes are important to consider but isn’t the only factor in determining achievement. As a high school teacher, students complete work at a much faster rate and marking 100+ tests and lab reports take time. If I even take 3 minutes to mark and write helpful feedback to each student, that’s 300 minutes per test I’m giving feedback for that I’ll be doing outside of the classroom as I teach 3 x 35 students (some teachers have classes of 40+). Keep in mind we also have to do an extracurricular. I coach so that is 90 minutes per day outside the classroom, during game days I’ll sometimes be at school until 9:30pm. Class size does strongly encourage high school teachers to Scantron based tests that provide poor feedback. Ultimately, student achievement isn’t only determined by class sizes as many high school students don’t read my feedback or ask for help when they should, but it is oftentimes the easiest topic to rally around. I personally think other factors such as assignable time, increasing classroom complexity and lack of Ed assistants to address those complexities make a larger impact.

- Administration and management is easily a target for many people as saying it’s “bloated” but I’d like to know whether people making these claims actually know what the budget is for management level employees. As with PD days, how teachers decide to access support from admin and downtown specialists is important. I’ve personally seen specialists help with the following: advocating for additional staffing in highly complex EES classrooms (students with very exceptional learning and medical needs), looking over created assessments and providing guidance on curriculum alignment, teaching teachers how to run specific learning strategies such as literature circles. They no doubt get ragged on a lot from teachers and the public as being unnecessary. But having personally accessed their expertise and being a willing participant in improving my practices, I’ve found them to be very helpful. Not all teachers access these willingly as teaching is a very personal practice and they feel infringed upon when receiving outside recommendations on their practice. The article talking about specialists being many years removed from the classroom is just completely false, and specialists and strategists have 3 year term limits before they must return to the classroom. Finally, admin in our school is literally swamped with kicking vaping kids out of the bathroom daily, finding who was selling machetes in the parking lot, chasing after a teen with a balaclava on wielding a baseball bat, scrambling for milk to treat a student who got maced, shutting down an entire hallway that got maced (yes these have all have happened…in one year), and answering over 100 emails per day from parents about why their kid isn’t getting 100% in a class. Those are all things I’m grateful that someone ELSE is doing instead of me.

[driveway]

Here: https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/5412...iew-report.pdf



is the report from the Alberta Government on the Class Size Initiative.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

TIL that there are people on this earth who actually believe large class sizes won’t affect learning outcomes for students. Who knew!

I wonder if those same people have tried washing all of their clothes at the same time in a single load of laundry. On average, do they turn out OK?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by driveway

Here: https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/5412...iew-report.pdf



is the report from the Alberta Government on the Class Size Initiative.

I basically skimmed through this and the class sizes don’t seem egregious? I see that the K-3 was higher than they’d like, but from 4-12 they were all under the guidelines. I do think that the early years are where smaller class sizes have the greatest impact on the students, but that’s basically personal opinion.

I don’t know how this compares on a more historical scale. Like if you went back say 20-25 years ago, are the class sizes roughly the same?

[GGG]

Yes washing all your clothes in the same Load turns out ok. Modern inks and detergents are far better than when the laundry rules were created. That’s a terrible analogy.

I think the problem with the article is it provides no comparison to other jurisdictions on there current state of education and what are the difference. Basically it just says test scores are down here’s what we are trying. It should be framed as these areas are worse than other jurisdictions and these areas are better. Other areas have done the following successful initiatives and we will adopt their policies in a few places while maintaining ours in areas of success.

Essentially that article adds no value or context to evaluate if the proposed changes are well designed.

I also think the methodology of students /teachers = class size is a flawed way of calculating and instead should be done on % of actual classes over and under a range of targets. It should be presented as a bell curve.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

TIL that there are people on this earth who actually believe large class sizes won’t affect learning outcomes for students. Who knew!

I wonder if those same people have tried washing all of their clothes at the same time in a single load of laundry. On average, do they turn out OK?

Some of them ended up fine... Like that sock over there. Good old reliable sock.