Feds to pay Aboriginals $500 - $700 million for Non Aboriginal Foster homes

[PepsiFree]

Because if you don’t try you just contribute to the problem you lament, which is hypocritical. Try or don’t, but don’t come in and further derail threads when some people are trying (even if all of them, myself included) aren’t always behaved well.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

There's failing to live up to your own standards and then there's calling people morons, which I'm pretty sure isn't allowed here. As for icecube contributing critical thinking and reasoned positions, I think you've mistaken him for rubecube. Icecube is essentially a bible-thumper for his own self-righteous evangel. And you'll note that's a criticism of his world view, rather than a comment on his intellectual capacity.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The fact is, aboriginal people do not need to integrate into Canadian society. Canadian society needs to incorporate their culture and way of life into what we believe Canadian society to be.

Nice sentiments. What do they mean in practice?

Canadians like stuff. Houses and trucks and playstations and pizza. To get that stuff, they have jobs. They work 20 or 30 or 40 hours a week. To get jobs, they get training and move to where the jobs are.

I've lived in a Native community. You know what? They want houses and trucks and playstations and pizza too.

So how do we provide them? It's easy to say "provide housing." Do you know how costly it is build a modern house in a community that's inaccessible by road? When nobody owns their homes, and nobody has any incentive to maintain or improve them, it turns out the homes get quickly trashed. In a lot of these communities, nobody has any trades. When the plumbing breaks down, someone has to flown in from outside the community at the cost of thousands of dollars to fix it.

These are deep and intractable problems. Canada has not been ignoring them. Tens of thousands of earnest people with goodwill have been working for decades, and spending billions on trying to address them.

Originally Posted by icecube

This is about as close as one can get to outright saying the residential schools weren't a problem.

They were a genuine attempt to solve a problem. They caused tremendous suffering. But ignoring the alternative - Native children growing up illiterate with no possibility of getting jobs - was a problem too.

I'll ask you then: What would you do, as head of the Indian Affairs department in 1955?

Originally Posted by icecube

And no, the adoptions weren't voluntary you moron.

The vast majority of Native adoptions were voluntary. In that period, poor women, Native and non-Native, routinely gave up children for adoption if they couldn't support them. Canada was a very different place before reliable birth control and government welfare.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Because if you don’t try you just contribute to the problem you lament, which is hypocritical. ...

I stopped participating in these type of discussions here some time ago. That has nothing to do with posters freely insulting others and you freely ignoring that.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Cliff might be well-spoken and well-mannered, but he’s hardly always well-reasoned or well-informed. Icecube has also demonstrated all of those things.

Instead of drawing attention to reactions that you think are inappropriate, feel free to join the conversation in a meaningful way.

I appreciated him drawing attention to the inappropriate behaviour. Helps the conversation in the long run.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m not sure what you’re asking, can you rephrase your question(s)? This has little to do with corporate culture or competitiveness in the urban world, because if you think it does then you’re missing the point entirely. The point is that our culture as a whole should be representative and respectful of the diverse traditions and ways of life we have. It’s not “how do we make Canadian corporate culture better for them,” it’s “stop telling them to integrate into “our” society and accept that their traditions and way of life is already part of it.”

They aren’t outsiders. They aren’t the other. They’re Canadians. They’re part of society already. They don’t need to change their culture to fit ours, we need to accept their culture as part of ours (which means quit saying they need to join society).

I think you’re just looking at this from a totally different angle and I’m not sure what angle that is, so sorry if this doesn’t really give you an answer.

hmmmm interesting. I think we are looking at different viewpoints. I agree that they don’t need to change their culture to fit ours, we need to accept their culture as part of ours. But what does that mean? Have we not accepted their culture over the last 40 years? I don't know, this is why i asked earlier, are there programs out there for aboriginals or are they being neglected because 'they don't fit out society'.

Corporate culture has to be a part of this, even if not 100%. The world moves at this speed, we have this many people in urban areas compared to rural. All the education and work is in cities with advanced learning institutions everywhere. Yes they are Canadian but it's not just others and outsiders have to adapt to society, Canadians have to continually adapt to it's own ever-changing society. Look how much upgrading we do in our own jobs.

So again, if a group like aboriginals, or teenagers, or immigrants or oilers fans or any group falls behind, what programs are there?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

hmmmm interesting. I think we are looking at different viewpoints. I agree that they don’t need to change their culture to fit ours, we need to accept their culture as part of ours. But what does that mean? Have we not accepted their culture over the last 40 years? I don't know, this is why i asked earlier, are there programs out there for aboriginals or are they being neglected because 'they don't fit out society'.

Corporate culture has to be a part of this, even if not 100%. The world moves at this speed, we have this many people in urban areas compared to rural. All the education and work is in cities with advanced learning institutions everywhere. Yes they are Canadian but it's not just others and outsiders have to adapt to society, Canadians have to continually adapt to it's own ever-changing society. Look how much upgrading we do in our own jobs.

So again, if a group like aboriginals, or teenagers, or immigrants or oilers fans or any group falls behind, what programs are there?

Residential school were in full force 40 years ago and didn't end until 1996. So no we have not been accepting of indigenous culture over the last 40 years.

It's also going to take a lot longer than 40 years to undo the centuries of abuse.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

What some posters are missing here is the cascading effect residential schools and forced foster homes have through generations. Entire generations of people were prevented from becoming leaders or pursuing their own destiny. Instead, they became victims of abuse. This abuse then gets passed down to the next generation, as these people now lack family ties, proper support structures, education, labour skills, etc..

And some posters are missing the fact that the alternative to residential schools was illiteracy and no hope of ever having a job. The first generation of Natives from remote communities who did get an education, who became teachers and lawyers and leaders of their community, went to residential schools. Because there were no other options.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by blankall

Residential school were in full force 40 years ago and didn't end until 1996. So no we have not been accepting of indigenous culture over the last 40 years.

It's also going to take a lot longer than 40 years to undo the centuries of abuse.

sorry 20 years, i wasn't sure when it ended. I was kind of using 1955 as a reference.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And some posters are missing the fact that the alternative to residential schools was illiteracy and no hope of ever having a job. The first generation of Natives from remote communities who did get an education, who became teachers and lawyers and leaders of their community, went to residential schools. Because there were no other options.

Cliff, we can all separate the good intentions from the problems that resulted, it’s time you stop justifying one for the other. The problem is not and has never been that aboriginal people were educated, it was the abusive system they were educated in that we need to atone for.

Does illiteracy and “no hope” of ever having a job trump years and years of abuse in terms of terrible things that could happen to you? I’d say no.

It does matter how noble you think the intention was, the result was one of the biggest points of shameful abuse in Canadian history. Figure it out, man.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Corporate culture has to be a part of this, even if not 100%. The world moves at this speed, we have this many people in urban areas compared to rural. All the education and work is in cities with advanced learning institutions everywhere. Yes they are Canadian but it's not just others and outsiders have to adapt to society, Canadians have to continually adapt to it's own ever-changing society. Look how much upgrading we do in our own jobs.

Again, you’re looking at this from a strictly urban-centric view as an urbanite.

What you’re saying isn’t true, not even for people who live in small communities and rural areas, let alone those who live on a reserve. Corporate culture has nothing to do with it at all, and corporate culture isn’t relevant to many Canadians that aren’t aboriginal as well.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

CliffFletcher is one the most well-spoken, well-reasoned and well-mannered posters here. You, on the other hand, appear to be... the exact opposite.

I can only imagine the quality of forum threads when one feels totally comfortable throwing personal insults.

I dont care how well spoken and well reasoned he comes across to you. He can shove his well mannered colonial b.s. up his ass. He deserved to get called on that crap.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And some posters are missing the fact that the alternative to residential schools was illiteracy and no hope of ever having a job. The first generation of Natives from remote communities who did get an education, who became teachers and lawyers and leaders of their community, went to residential schools. Because there were no other options.

Why couldn't they be educated in their communities like most other Canadian students? Why was an involuntary boarding school model the only alternative to illiteracy? The answer isn't because such things weren't possible; obviously the children of white settlers received educations in very remote places. It's because residential and industrial schools were crafted to isolate the students from their families and their culture. This wasn't a side effect, it was by design.

[Cheese]

I agree with what the Canadian Government is doing here, it is the correct thing. I also believe there is culpability with another party that seems to be getting a free ride. The Catholic Church were the perpetrators of the vast majority of crimes commited on behalf of the government and should be paying as well.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And some posters are missing the fact that the alternative to residential schools was illiteracy and no hope of ever having a job. The first generation of Natives from remote communities who did get an education, who became teachers and lawyers and leaders of their community, went to residential schools. Because there were no other options.

And why were those schools not built on their reservations? Where their children could either be bused to school or walk or bike to school? Where their children could go home to Mommy and Daddy at night?

And why were they forced to give up their native language? Children returned home in the summer, unable to communicate with their parents.

And why did they have to cut their hair to "white" standards?

Because it was cultural genocide. They were viewed as savages.

And while we are at it, why were most of the reservations given to the various First Nations waste land, unable to make a living on? set up for failure? and they were not given much of a choice in most cases.

My father's farm bordered the north side of the Piapot Reserve north of Regina. Outside of some gravel pits and some land for grazing, there is no other source of income.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Why couldn't they be educated in their communities like most other Canadian students? Why was an involuntary boarding school model the only alternative to illiteracy? The answer isn't because such things weren't possible; obviously the children of white settlers received educations in very remote places. It's because residential and industrial schools were crafted to isolate the students from their families and their culture. This wasn't a side effect, it was by design.

Because Mighty Whitey always knows what's best for the Noble Savage.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Why couldn't they be educated in their communities like most other Canadian students?

Because they didn't have schools in the middle of nowhere back when the residential school system was set up.

Originally Posted by opendoor

Why was an involuntary boarding school model the only alternative to illiteracy? The answer isn't because such things weren't possible; obviously the children of white settlers received educations in very remote places.

Often they didn't. Or they were taught by some random spinster in a barn. That's tough to pull off when nobody in a community has even a high school education.

The apparatus of the modern welfare state was not set up in Canada until the 60s. This country was a very different place before that. There was no secular public school in Quebec, for example, until 1964 - the Catholic church ran all schools. Everyone older than about 60 today in Quebec or Ireland was taught by priests and nuns.

Originally Posted by opendoor

It's because residential and industrial schools were crafted to isolate the students from their families and their culture. This wasn't a side effect, it was by design.

Yes, it was by design. And that's the tragedy. The people who set up the system believed that children had to assimilate to have any future in Canada. They were wrong. But they were not malicious.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I agree with what the Canadian Government is doing here, it is the correct thing. I also believe there is culpability with another party that seems to be getting a free ride. The Catholic Church were the perpetrators of the vast majority of crimes commited on behalf of the government and should be paying as well.

Yep. They're trying to wiggle out of paying their court-mandated reparations. Time's running out though. With all the lawsuits against the Church, I doubt they'll be solvent in another 10 years.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I agree with what the Canadian Government is doing here, it is the correct thing. I also believe there is culpability with another party that seems to be getting a free ride. The Catholic Church were the perpetrators of the vast majority of crimes commited on behalf of the government and should be paying as well.

The United Chirch was equally as prevalent as the Catholics.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Why are people being so overly PC about this?

There were a few really good threads on reddit about some native people discussing the problems with the reserves and how children growing up amongst the drug and alcohol problems had little chance of getting through their education.

Why are we ignoring the rampant problems with native culture and just focussing on the positives? They have some great traditions, language, etc - but how about the overwhelming negative aspects of being on the reserve.

Maybe it's primitive thinking (as were a lot of things back then) that the children were forcibly removed from all their culture, but as Cliff has been saying - this doesn't seem malicious. People just thought assimilation was the only way the children wouldn't drift into the negatives.