American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Slava]

Originally Posted by troutman

Doesn’t Bannon have to admit guilt first? And if pardoned, he can’t plead the Fifth in future proceedings?

Apparently not. You can be pardoned for crimes committed, but not been charged for. I was reading about this a week or two ago and it’s a bizarre system. I think Nixon was pardoned for crimes committed during his presidency (which would cover a set timeframe), but that’s one of the wrinkles.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by troutman

Doesn’t Bannon have to admit guilt first? And if pardoned, he can’t plead the Fifth in future proceedings?

I know a lot of people more knowledge about US law than me have said this before, but it seems dumb to me.

We as a society have a principal of not coercing testimony, unless we write you a nice little get out of jail free note.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

And that's how the GOP will vote to convict in the Senate.

The Patriot Party will split the GOP in two. Even if it's an unequal split, it would be enough to hand the Democrats states and districts that are solidly Republican.

Instantly they'd lose Texas, and Florida.

Convict and bar Trump from running could save the GOP.

This would likely crush the GOP's chances for any general election in the near future. With a Trump fueled party taking votes from the GOP, I don't see how Republicans would win many of the swing states. PA would go blue every time, Florida and Texas like you said, pretty much all the midwest states (Ohio/MI/Wi)...I don't think the GOP would have enough supporters to overcome a Trump party candidate.

So by all means, GOP, let Trump ruin your party even farther.

For example, on a Pens board I occasionally peruse, (which btw makes CP look like a liberal haven) even the hardcore GOP supporters are welcoming this. They're willing to take a decade of Democratic rule in order to get the GOP back in order.

[Manhattanboy]

Pardons only apply to federal laws right?

[photon]

Originally Posted by #-3

I know a lot of people more knowledge about US law than me have said this before, but it seems dumb to me.

We as a society have a principal of not coercing testimony, unless we write you a nice little get out of jail free note.

The fifth is about giving testimony that would incriminate yourself, and if pardoned then one can't incriminate one's self anymore (assuming the testimony is in relation to what you were pardoned for).

That's the idea as I understand it anyway.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Pardons only apply to federal laws right?

Federal crimes yes. Governors can pardon for state crimes.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

This would likely crush the GOP's chances for any general election in the near future. With a Trump fueled party taking votes from the GOP, I don't see how Republicans would win many of the swing states. PA would go blue every time, Florida and Texas like you said, pretty much all the midwest states (Ohio/MI/Wi)...I don't think the GOP would have enough supporters to overcome a Trump party candidate.

So by all means, GOP, let Trump ruin your party even farther.

For example, on a Pens board I occasionally peruse, (which btw makes CP look like a liberal haven) even the hardcore GOP supporters are welcoming this. They're willing to take a decade of Democratic rule in order to get the GOP back in order.

A party taking away 15% of the GOP's vote would have cost the Republicans 9 Senators, 61 Representatives, and 8 States totaling 124 Electoral votes. (Alaska, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina, Texas)

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

And here...we...go

https://twitter.com/user/status/1351704558578368515

The “Pee Pees” or the “Pees”... I like it.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by driveway

A party taking away 15% of the GOP's vote would have cost the Republicans 9 Senators, 61 Representatives, and 8 States totaling 124 Electoral votes. (Alaska, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina, Texas)

They need to call this bluff. He’s relied on the competency of the republican political machine. Without that machine him & his brainless sack of sycophants have the ability to organize a rally and that’s about it. He’s use it as a mechanism to exploit people, then it will fail like every other business in his business model.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by photon

The fifth is about giving testimony that would incriminate yourself, and if pardoned then one can't incriminate one's self anymore (assuming the testimony is in relation to what you were pardoned for).

That's the idea as I understand it anyway.

I get it, but the a-liberal implications are pretty similar.

If it's his preference to say nothing than he shouldn't be made to talk, it makes the people who do talk a lot more trustworthy.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Boreal

They need to call this bluff. He’s relied on the competency of the republican political machine. Without that machine him & his brainless sack of sycophants have the ability to organize a rally and that’s about it. He’s use it as a mechanism to exploit people, then it will fail like every other business in his business model.

Or more like the Republican machine used him just to get things passed, most importantly judges. Now he is no use to them.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Boreal

They need to call this bluff. He’s relied on the competency of the republican political machine. Without that machine him & his brainless sack of sycophants have the ability to organize a rally and that’s about it. He’s use it as a mechanism to exploit people, then it will fail like every other business in his business model.

But it's like as President; he doesn't care about winning as much as he cares about punishing his enemies, which right now that might be the GOP establishment more than anyone. And it wouldn't take much for him to bring the GOP to its knees. Just find a Boebert in every safe Republican or competitive district; the crazier the better, because the more crazies you have, the less you need to pay for publicity. He might win some seats, but more importantly he can drive the Republicans to a humiliating defeat.
It's something we've seen on the right-wing in Canada before: further-right upstart party vote-splits the establishment right-wing party, the establishment suffers a humiliating defeat while the upstart is seen as on the rise, and the establishment has no choice but to try to cut a deal with the upstart party on that party's terms, or face perpetual defeat.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Slava

Apparently not. You can be pardoned for crimes committed, but not been charged for. I was reading about this a week or two ago and it’s a bizarre system. I think Nixon was pardoned for crimes committed during his presidency (which would cover a set timeframe), but that’s one of the wrinkles.

It was never tested though in Nixon. For all intents and purposes, a blanket pardon could be a meaningless gesture. The first case would probably eventually end up in the Supreme Court and that would determine how any other untried pardons are handled.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by #-3

I get it, but the a-liberal implications are pretty similar.

If it's his preference to say nothing than he shouldn't be made to talk, it makes the people who do talk a lot more trustworthy.

People are subpoenaed and compelled to testify all the time. The 5th doesn't protect you from testifying, just testifying where you testimony would self-incriminate. If pardoned can you self-incriminate?

A similar question would be can you be compelled to testifying n a matter where your testimony would be eelf-incriminating if you have already been tried, convicted, and fully served the sentence (or found not-guilty)?

[KootenayFlamesFan]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1351871112423088130

https://twitter.com/user/status/1351871609154523138

[KootenayFlamesFan]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1351883040985927680

[JohnnyB]

It is just so funny that his final sign off as president is done to the tune of YMCA.

[Fuzz]

Woohoo! Get to use this guy one last time.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

https://twitter.com/user/status/1351871609154523138

How do you count undocumented people and would undocumented people want to be counted? Unless there is some path to citizenship.

I believe only about 20% of eligible people signed up for DACA and that put them at risk when Trump took over.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

https://twitter.com/user/status/1351883040985927680

Hopefully this is the end.

But I doubt it. Trump has brought and exposed and inflamed Extremism in the US. Trump Extremists are not going to give up. His cult of personality is no less than any of the big dictators of our time and the past.

Whether we want to admit it or not, he's changed the US and put it on a path that doesn't seem so rosey for the rest of us.