Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Seize the means of production comrade. If the mechanic doesn't like getting a fraction of his rate he should open his own business and front the capital costs associated with that.

Or perhaps groups like the Motor Dealers Association could stop investing so much money in lobbying to take away the rights of workers and these problems could be addressed in other ways?

Is it really such a radical concept to want people who are scheduled for 8 hours to be guaranteed to be paid for that time? If your employer has money to burn on lobbying to take your rights as an employee away one would think they should have enough money to pay you for the time you have to be there.

[opendoor]

If you want more people to work in trades, then you really need to improve the conditions. I remember being at a family dinner with a couple of sheet metal workers who were talking about the **** they put apprentices through (basically hazing and bullying that they considered to be "pranks"). And then not 5 minutes later, they were complaining how no young people were sticking it out in their trade and blaming it all on Millennials' laziness.

People vote with their feet, and if there's a shortage of tradespeople despite good pay and benefits, there's probably a good reason for that.

[IGGYRULES]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I don’t doubt these things are happening. It’s the pace we would likely disagree with. Hydrogen for example as an energy form is in its infancy, if it will even work on a mass scale we don’t even know yet. Economics are a thing that matter, but also technology adoption of this type is not something that happens overnight. Further and maybe more importantly, oil and gas are used in a massive array for humanity. So many people have no idea what oil and gas all gets used in, and thousands of these products have no alternatives.

Agree with that. However as we saw with the pandemic the larger the input of $$$$ the faster things happen. Hydrogen needs to be de-risked with public funds in order to accelerate at the pace needed to become the fuel of the future. Oil and gas will always have a place in our economy but we need to move away from it as much as possible. The industry needs to do more to lessen the impact.

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[Cappy]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Seize the means of production comrade. If the mechanic doesn't like getting a fraction of his rate he should open his own business and front the capital costs associated with that.

Harder and harder to do now. With vehicles and machines essentially un fixable without authorization from manufacturers. Your hands are always tied. You take your car to the authorized dealer who plugs in the CAR-FIX-O-MATIC to tell you what’s wrong and you pay hundreds of dollars.

Right to fix laws would be perfect for these situations. Perhaps we need to move back to nations of shopkeepers


Long haul trucking is essentially the same. All independent contractors getting lopped into rent to own agreements making zero money putting in ridiculous hours to make sure you get your Amazon prime package on same day delivery.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Harder and harder to do now. With vehicles and machines essentially un fixable without authorization from manufacturers. Your hands are always tied. You take your car to the authorized dealer who plugs in the CAR-FIX-O-MATIC to tell you what’s wrong and you pay hundreds of dollars.

Right to fix laws would be perfect for these situations. Perhaps we need to move back to nations of shopkeepers


Long haul trucking is essentially the same. All independent contractors getting lopped into rent to own agreements making zero money putting in ridiculous hours to make sure you get your Amazon prime package on same day delivery.

Long haul trucking is an industry in dire need of reform.

And just adding regulations to squeeze drivers' wages isnt the answer.

Love them or hate them Truck Drivers and trucking is a huge part of Canadian infrastructure and you cant keep kicking them in the face.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by IGGYRULES

Agree with that. However as we saw with the pandemic the larger the input of $$$$ the faster things happen. Hydrogen needs to be de-risked with public funds in order to accelerate at the pace needed to become the fuel of the future. Oil and gas will always have a place in our economy but we need to move away from it as much as possible. The industry needs to do more to lessen the impact.

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The industry is doing an absolute #### ton on new energy and hydrogen. In fact, no other industry or group is ACTUALLY DOING more. There’s a lot of talk but not a lot of capital invested or action. Oil and gas companies are widespread doing a lot, actually, and this is in spite of the fact these projects have hilariously dubious economics and are mostly just an accounting facade of carbon “credit” bull-. Go look at any Canadian midstream company and their investor presentation and they will walk you through projects and concepts and engineering designs of hydrogen, ammonia and related types of experimental projects. Carbon capture projects are full steam ahead with Alberta just finalizing calls for new carbon sequestration projects in the oil sands and heavy oil areas that are quite frankly wildly risky and insane. Insane because governments have become so risky and wildly unpredictable and the Conservatives are talking about scrapping the carbon tax. Do you invest hundreds of millions or billions and then watch policy which conjured up these econs get scrapped? Like would you do it? And yet there they are, still trying. They also are basically being forced into extortion with local indigenous groups and having to partner with them. Again such projects are highly experimental with uncertain seal formations to contain the carbon sequestered and let me affirm you, drilling enough wells to prove up proof of concept of the container rock is going to take millions of dollars of capital and many years to get right so that they don’t destroy huge swaths of reservoir. Meanwhile major oil sands players are all grouped up trying to get huge carbon sequestration projects as well.

We are talking hundreds of millions of risk capital for econs that don’t actually work and yet these companies are doing it because they know this is what the government and stockholders and Canadians want to see happen.

Please tell me who else is putting anywhere near 5% of all these efforts. Come on.

[IGGYRULES]

Alot = the minimal amount to appease the government, shareholders and public. Agree the risks are substantial here which is why they'll do the minimum and you can't blame them for that.

Like I said the hydrogen economy needs to be de-risked through policy and public investment. Beside O&G who has the capital to do these things without that policy and investments in place? I know your point touched in this.

O&G also need to look at moving into delivering hydrogen through existing pipe and from what I understand they've started testing overseas to see what blend works with the existing infrastructure.

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[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The reason we need immigration to fill those position is almost nobody raised in Canada will drive a truck, clean hospitals, or do other unpleasant work. We don’t have any problem acknowledging the affluence of Boomers. But we don’t acknowledge one of the consequences, which is that the children of Boomers can afford to be choosy about what work they do.

The funny thing is a lot of the undesirable jobs can pay quite well, but they carry the stigma of falling back into the working class. So mom and dad will let their kids live at home and live rent-free and maybe be a waiter or work retail rather than take a job doing something gross like building concrete frames or being a nursing home orderly.

Is this true or have real wages for these “gross” jobs gone down overtime making the difference in pay between retail and the undesirable work no longer worth it and the government has supported low pay by allowing TFWs to undercut the wage market.

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by IGGYRULES

Alot = the minimal amount to appease the government, shareholders and public. Agree the risks are substantial here which is why they'll do the minimum and you can't blame them for that.

Like I said the hydrogen economy needs to be de-risked through policy and public investment. Beside O&G who has the capital to do these things without that policy and investments in place? I know your point touched in this.

O&G also need to look at moving into delivering hydrogen through existing pipe and from what I understand they've started testing overseas to see what blend works with the existing infrastructure.

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What are you doing?

I find the internet and particularly the left wing subReddit's are full of people saying how everyone else isn't doing enough

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Not a Doug Ford fan at all, but good for him for saying something.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1563675544050405376

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

The rest of your gobbly#### is 110% nonsense not based in reality about energy systems and how human beings and the world works. I too think that laser beams and flying cars that are powered by pixie dust are just right right around the corner. There’s cool new science and emerging technologies and then there’s 100s of years of human civilization history to tell us about technology adoption trends, timelines and realities that we would be ill advised to ignore if we want Canada to be a relevant country 50 years from now.

Solar and wind have gone from the equivalent of 0% of oil consumption to 10% in the span of 30 years, and were seeing electrolyzer plants going from 1-10s of MW to the 1 GW by the end of decade.

But being ignorant about energy systems is cool and stuff, and Justin Trudeau the biggest idiot of all tells us from his mansion that climate change is the biggest crisis facing us (it could be, but it depends on your values, and most Canadians disagree- obviously- evidenced by actions).

Hey they're are dozen of fully permitted oil sands and LNG export projects in Canada. Nothing is stopping you and bunch of like minded people from investing the billions into anyone of those and earning your riches.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The reason we need immigration to fill those position is almost nobody raised in Canada will drive a truck, clean hospitals, or do other unpleasant work. We don’t have any problem acknowledging the affluence of Boomers. But we don’t acknowledge one of the consequences, which is that the children of Boomers can afford to be choosy about what work they do.

The funny thing is a lot of the undesirable jobs can pay quite well, but they carry the stigma of falling back into the working class. So mom and dad will let their kids live at home and live rent-free and maybe be a waiter or work retail rather than take a job doing something gross like building concrete frames or being a nursing home orderly.

Some of these jobs pay like complete crap or offer extremely undesirable work environments or schedules. They are then undercut by TFWs and immigrants taking these jobs as they are far higher paying than back home to send money back to family

The only problem is that many immigrants/TFWs don't realize how expensive it is to live in Canada so many rent single bedrooms in some slum-lord-esque housing to eek out whatever money they can.

(Paul Collier's book "Exodus" touches on this subject quite a bit - as well as other consequences of immigration for all parties involved)

To blame this issue on the lazy millennial archetype is hilariously old fashioned and largely anecdotal

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Solar and wind have gone from the equivalent of 0% of oil consumption to 10% in the span of 30 years, and were seeing electrolyzer plants going from 1-10s of MW to the 1 GW by the end of decade.



Hey they're are dozen of fully permitted oil sands and LNG export projects in Canada. Nothing is stopping you and bunch of like minded people from investing the billions into anyone of those and earning your riches.

30 years. For a relatively small increase in net supply. Exactly my point. 30 years is a long time, isn’t it?

Your other para I don’t think I understand what you mean or what your point is. And if it’s what I think you’re trying to say, same can be said for new renewable technology, knock yourself out. The only ones who are are basically oil and gas companies who get #### all over all day long by the public and governments and yet they’re the ones doing the most. It’s garbage. Also to the other guy asking who else should do this stuff? Uhh, anyone? No other industries or groups can try this stuff? No, sorry, do not buy it. How about our oligopoly banks do something about climate change, give more grants more loans better terms to prop this stuff up? They’re only making multiple billions every quarter.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Solar and wind have gone from the equivalent of 0% of oil consumption to 10% in the span of 30 years, and were seeing electrolyzer plants going from 1-10s of MW to the 1 GW by the end of decade.



Hey they're are dozen of fully permitted oil sands and LNG export projects in Canada. Nothing is stopping you and bunch of like minded people from investing the billions into anyone of those and earning your riches.

Source? Curious to know.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Source? Curious to know.

You can see a map here.

http://osip.alberta.ca/map/

Uncheck every box except for Approved Oil Sand Mines and In Situ Facilities.


For LNG you can go to the IAAC website and search for LNG and click the checkbox for completed assessments.
https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluati...ion?search=LNG

Note not all projects were approved. Probably the most prominent LNG project out there is Kitimat LNG which I believe started out as LNG Import facility. Also there are LNG projects that don't require Federal Environmental Impact assessments. However all LNG Export/Import facilities require export/import licenses. You can find them here.
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/applica...ons/index.html

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

You can see a map here.

http://osip.alberta.ca/map/

Uncheck every box except for Approved Oil Sand Mines and In Situ Facilities.


For LNG you can go to the IAAC website and search for LNG and click the checkbox for completed assessments.
https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluati...ion?search=LNG

Note not all projects were approved. Probably the most prominent LNG project out there is Kitimat LNG which I believe started out as LNG Import facility. Also there are LNG projects that don't require Federal Environmental Impact assessments. However all LNG Export/Import facilities require export/import licenses. You can find them here.
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/applica...ons/index.html

So you consider something like BP’s Terre de Grace as “approved and just waiting for someone to spend the money”?

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

You can see a map here.

http://osip.alberta.ca/map/

Uncheck every box except for Approved Oil Sand Mines and In Situ Facilities.


For LNG you can go to the IAAC website and search for LNG and click the checkbox for completed assessments.
https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluati...ion?search=LNG

Note not all projects were approved. Probably the most prominent LNG project out there is Kitimat LNG which I believe started out as LNG Import facility. Also there are LNG projects that don't require Federal Environmental Impact assessments. However all LNG Export/Import facilities require export/import licenses. You can find them here.
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/applica...ons/index.html

Sure you can build an oilsands mine or LNG export facility - but how do you get the product to and from them? Show the pipeline approvals.

Kind of like saying, "why aren't people building cars, designs are approved ...only they won't let you make tires"

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Mayo

Sure you can build an oilsands mine or LNG export facility - but how do you get the product to and from them? Show the pipeline approvals.

Kind of like saying, "why aren't people building cars, designs are approved ...only they won't let you make tires"

Yeah the situation is more complicated than one permit, or assessment, obviously. I guess the new game the obstructionists are going to play in the face of more people realizing that oil and gas are, like, kinda important, is to pretend that there's a litany of projects fully ready to go if only people would spend the money. I guess that makes sense if you think these work like getting a permit to use a gazebo in the park on a sunday, and ignore the last 7 years of Canadian resource politics, and ignore that the US has built thousands of miles of oil pipe to ocean and 15 bcf/d of LNG capacity in the last ten years while we've somehow built 0. Oh and you pretend that building a new oil sands mine is somehow feasible after the environmental left worked extremely hard and diligently to block any medium of transport out of the province rendering any investment into new oil production with no way of selling it a monumentally stupid decision that no company with a shred of fiduciary duty to their shareholders would ever undertake, ever. So best case scenario, in three years, we'll have one pipeline and one LNG facility, better than nothing but not enough to materially help any ally countries in the face of bad actor petro states or grow the pie for Canadian companies, and everyone who supported divesting from oil and gas or thought that pipelines weren't that important gets to wear that. When Europe freezes this winter you should feel bad and try to do better in the future, maybe listen when people who actually understand energy and global geopolitics tell you that Canada would have been much more influential force for good as an energy superpower than a whiny country hectoring others about hydrogen and wind and other useless energy forms.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If you want more people to work in trades, then you really need to improve the conditions. I remember being at a family dinner with a couple of sheet metal workers who were talking about the **** they put apprentices through (basically hazing and bullying that they considered to be "pranks"). And then not 5 minutes later, they were complaining how no young people were sticking it out in their trade and blaming it all on Millennials' laziness.

People vote with their feet, and if there's a shortage of tradespeople despite good pay and benefits, there's probably a good reason for that.

What year was this? I can't remember the last time I witnessed any form of hazing or bullying in the trades.

[Suave]

Originally Posted by Mayo

Sure you can build an oilsands mine or LNG export facility - but how do you get the product to and from them? Show the pipeline approvals.

Kind of like saying, "why aren't people building cars, designs are approved ...only they won't let you make tires"

Well Transmountain will increase export capacity by 590,00 barrels. That plus the expansions on existing systems plus rail, give lots of room to grown.

Coastal gas link will stat with 1.7 BCF and can expand to 5.0 BCF. At full expansion that is a 50% increase in export capacity.