Systemic Racism in US and Canada

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In my experience, Indigenous professors, researchers, and student activists are about as representative of the beliefs of typical Indigenous Canadians as their non-Indigenous counterparts are.

Do you have any evidence at all for your opinion that they'd rather have a $20 Timmies card than see offensive names removed? Or is this just your gut feeling?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In my experience, Indigenous professors, researchers, and student activists are about as representative of the beliefs of average Indigenous Canadians as their non-Indigenous counterparts are.

What about Elders and Chiefs? Would you consider their opinions to be relevant? If not what kind of data would you be looking for to change your opinion?

[PepsiFree]

First they were casually lumped in as "white people," and now we're on the position that the opinions of certain indigenous people on what matters to indigenous people don't actually count.

Criticize catholicism? Well, you can't, because some indigenous people are Catholics.

Criticize those who want to rename a street? Well, that's fine, because the indigenous people behind it don't count/aren't representative.

A bit tough to keep track of what we can and can't do in the crusade against culture warz.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In my experience, Indigenous professors, researchers, and student activists are about as representative of the beliefs of average Indigenous Canadians as their non-Indigenous counterparts are.

The problem with this take is anyone that asks for anything becomes 'an activist' and so can be conveniently discounted, it becomes an excuse for doing nothing 'they want clean water? well they're just activists'

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It wasn't a suggestion to redress historic wrongs. He was using a hypothetical scenario to illustrate his point, which is that most indigenous people don't actually care all that much about re-naming things named after people with, shall we say, complicated legacies - that if given the choice between having those things re-named and getting a $20 gift card, indigenous people would care so little about the re-naming that they'd take the gift card that at least gives them a couple of free lunches.

Leaving aside whether you agree with the point or whether you think that example is good or bad, at least let's be clear about what he was actually saying.

But being clear about what he was actually saying doesn't allow me to call him trash with impunity and obnoxious moral superiority.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

What about Elders and Chiefs? Would you consider their opinions to be relevant? If not what kind of data would you be looking for to change your opinion?

I’d certainly regard their opinions as closer to popular opinion.

Municipalities and school boards are free to rename streets, parks, and schools as PR exercises (though unfortunately the costs won’t come out of the PR department budgets). But they’re not moving the happiness/pain meter like they want to believe. If only we could move the happiness/pain meter by renaming streets, making symbolic gestures of atonement, and publishing editorials. What a world that would be.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’d certainly regard their opinions as closer to popular opinion.

Municipalities and school boards are free to rename streets, parks, and schools as PR exercises (though unfortunately the costs won’t come out of the PR department budgets). But they’re not moving the happiness/pain meter like they want to believe. If only we could move the happiness/pain meter by renaming streets, making symbolic gestures of atonement, and publishing editorials. What a world that would be.

It's just one of many steps. Nobody thinks this is where it ends.

I mentioned it before, but I really do want more of a roadmap of what we're in for to make amends for this. I'm not into my eventual grandkids continuing an unending atonement process. I'd rather do it all now once we know what will make this right. If it's a forever-process of atonement without an end goal, my vote is we do absolutely nothing. Like if it won't work, let's not go to the expense and effort of it all.

First option is to right the wrong, though, but only if we'll get a, "thank you, it is time to move forward and leave the past behind us" at the end.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’d certainly regard their opinions as closer to popular opinion.

Municipalities and school boards are free to rename streets, parks, and schools as PR exercises (though unfortunately the costs won’t come out of the PR department budgets). But they’re not moving the happiness/pain meter like they want to believe. If only we could move the happiness/pain meter by renaming streets, making symbolic gestures of atonement, and publishing editorials. What a world that would be.

So since it doesn't fix everything don't do it?

It's low hanging fruit that can be done, and even if it only makes few people happy then do it. Pretty simple.

[V]

I really wish we would stop naming anything after anyone. People are trash, and eventually the moral compass will move and the names will have to be removed from other buildings/monuments. Just name places after things, or numbers, or animals, or whatever. The humble donkey never let us down.

Very weird to so staunchly be against such a small measure that is being asked by representatives of the indigenous community, regardless of the efficacy of such a measure. I think it makes sense to start there, and then see what we can do next that will actually move the needle. But to not do something because it doesn't accomplish enough is a strange take.

[Fuzz]

Yup, at absolute minimum, it's saying "ok, we hear you, and we acknowledge that. It's a reasonable request, and we'll do it." It's a good faith gesture, if absolutely nothing else. If you start by saying "nah, no big deal, we aren't gong to do anything", that really makes you look you aren't interested in even making the smallest gesture, so what hope is there for larger issues?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’d certainly regard their opinions as closer to popular opinion.

Municipalities and school boards are free to rename streets, parks, and schools as PR exercises (though unfortunately the costs won’t come out of the PR department budgets). But they’re not moving the happiness/pain meter like they want to believe. If only we could move the happiness/pain meter by renaming streets, making symbolic gestures of atonement, and publishing editorials. What a world that would be.

yes but Cliff these things do move the happiness pain meter, in in some ways these symbolic acts of atonement are more important than the more mundane things that do change the lot of our native community, the point is we have to do all of it, we have to change names and get clean water to the res, but one doesnt discount the other

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by V

I really wish we would stop naming anything after anyone. People are trash, and eventually the moral compass will move and the names will have to be removed from other buildings/monuments. Just name places after things, or numbers, or animals, or whatever. The humble donkey never let us down.

Ryerson University or Ass University which sounds more fun.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In my experience, Indigenous professors, researchers, and student activists are about as representative of the beliefs of average Indigenous Canadians as their non-Indigenous counterparts are.

Based on my own pretty extensive experience working directly with many of the bands across BC, this is absolutely true.

As afc kind of half-intentionally pointed out, there are the usual urban/rural divides as there are generally across Canada.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

yes but Cliff these things do move the happiness pain meter, in in some ways these symbolic acts of atonement are more important than the more mundane things that do change the lot of our native community, the point is we have to do all of it, we have to change names and get clean water to the res, but one doesnt discount the other

The latter outweighs the former need by an infinite measure.

FWIW I am not against changing names or taking down statues in certain circumstances. I mean, who cares, culture is always shifting and changing to accommodate different perspectives.

It’s the mob mentality.

[PsYcNeT]

All changes affecting indigenous Canadians should be enacted via plebiscite.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

All changes affecting indigenous Canadians should be enacted via plebiscite.

Something like this has to be the way.

There's going to be so many differing opinions between different bands, leaders, indigenous people in general, that you won't find concensus on much (as would be with any cultural/ethnic group).

But a system for voting and getting going on meaningful impacts for their communities needs to get going yesterday.

[Fuzz]

I'm pretty sure he was being facetious. We elect governments to enact the will of the people, not to have them pass back every idea back to the public for voting.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm pretty sure he was being facetious. We elect governments to enact the will of the people, not to have them pass back every idea back to the public for voting.

Maybe he was, but some form of wide spread input from various indigenous groups has to take place.

The "we" that elects governments are almost entirely non indigenous and electing almost entirely non indigenous people.
That hasn't worked and isn't representing the will of indigenous people.

[81MC]

Isn’t that the whole idea of band chiefs? I can understand that them voting in regular elections isn’t all representative of them, so okay, what do you do? My understanding is some bands have hereditary chiefs (which, you know, not necessarily looked upon with the most admirable eyes these days), and others were elected.

If treating them as sovereign entities, shouldn’t we be dealing with their leaders let them sort out the internal politics?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

The latter outweighs the former need by an infinite measure.

FWIW I am not against changing names or taking down statues in certain circumstances. I mean, who cares, culture is always shifting and changing to accommodate different perspectives.

It’s the mob mentality.

It costs next to nothing to remove a statue or change the name of a school or a road, and can and should be done as soon as a figure becomes an issue its a cheap simple way of letting a segment of our population we have treated appallingly know that we are aware of our past and wish to make amends.

If the objection to this is just because we dont like the politics of the people asking us to do the right thing, if that is your only objection to doing the right thing its a pretty morally shallow end of the wading pool it swim in