American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[White Out 403]

Wtf are you talking about? #### off with this holier than tho routine. I am not suggesting that child sex abuse has anything to do with trans people any more than I am suggesting underage alcohism is. Get a grip.

[afc wimbledon]

Get a grip? I'm the one that has to sit in a doctors office in your world and be told, 'well the best thing for you child would be gender reassignment but that's not allowed because its been banned by a bunch of homophobic idiots for no better reason than they dont like it'

[White Out 403]

Your hysterical outbursts and personal insults are incredibly persuasive.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Your hysterical outbursts and personal insults are incredibly persuasive.

as opposed to your 'I support trans rights except their right to be trans and get the appropriate medical treatment that their doctor deems correct'

[Wastedyouth]

LoUd NoIsEs!!!!!!

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I didn't say I didn't do the "research" I said that I didn't want to be bothered to google #### I've already read. But fine, here you go

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0016885

Large 30 year study in Sweden.

This study pretty much says that transgendered people struggle with mental health. Something I doubt you will find anyone arguing against.

It compares those who had gender-reassignment to the healthy population. To make the claim you want it to make it would need to look at transgendered people who were able to transition and transgendered people who could not.

And you don't need to take my word for it. Take the study itself:

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

their right to be trans

This is an outright lie, beyond greasy.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

and get the appropriate medical treatment that their doctor deems correct'

What about conversion therapy in the States? If a Doctor and parent sign off on it, and, convince the child it's correct, should conversion therapy be ok? Because that's the same logic.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I reject the notion that this is life saving surgery like cancer treatment or heart surgery. Could it improve the lives of some? Yeah perhaps. but the evidence in that is also lacking. I'm too lazy to google it but I'm under the impression that suicide rates do not improve long term for people who get gender re-assignment surgery.

I also think it's a weak argument to suggest the state has no role here. The state is certainly expected to protect children in other areas; children can't consent to sexual relations with adults; children can't enter in contracts; children can't buy alcohol, the list goes on.

I support the trans community and whatever adults want to do in consultation with medical professionals is fine by me. That support ends with certain treatments that are irreversible, which includes some hormone blockers. Someone mentioned, very disingenuously earlier , that need only stop taking hormone blockers and puberty continues. Well that's not the case all the time. If you take these hormone blockers for your entire teenage years your body will never be the same and you can't unring that bell.

Is your answer that the state gets final call on what children can and can’t do in terms of medical treatment?

Hormone blockers are also used for other conditions aside from gender dysphoria, including in children. Do you have an issue for them to be used in all circumstances as well?

And please cut it out with the “I support the trans community” stuff. You don’t. It’s obvious from your posts that you haven’t even begun to attempt to understand the life of a trans person, so please don’t assume people are gullible enough to buy your empty attempt at virtue signalling. You support the trans community so long as they act in a way you morally agree with.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And please cut it out with the “I support the trans community” stuff. You don’t.

People who say "Im a supporter of ________, but ...."

... are usually not supporters. They are just a statement qualifier to look less terrible to the afflicted audience.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

This is an outright lie, beyond greasy.




What about conversion therapy in the States? If a Doctor and parent sign off on it, and, convince the child it's correct, should conversion therapy be ok? Because that's the same logic.

If they cannot get the appropriate treatment as deemed neccersary by the appropriate specialist in Transgender health issues then you are advocating that they dont have the right to be trans, you may not realise this is what you are doing but this is what you are doing, it is no different than the catholic church arguing you can be gay you just cant have gay sex, or fall in love and get married or do anything that actually constitutes being gay

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

This study pretty much says that transgendered people struggle with mental health. Something I doubt you will find anyone arguing against.

It compares those who had gender-reassignment to the healthy population. To make the claim you want it to make it would need to look at transgendered people who were able to transition and transgendered people who could not.

And you don't need to take my word for it. Take the study itself:

This would be closer to the study you want White Out 403:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909023/

This study demonstrates an association between gender-affirming surgery and improved mental health outcomes. These results contribute new evidence to support the provision of gender-affirming surgical care for TGD people.

Now you can probably delve deeper into each individual. Like perhaps a person who transgendered did so because their family accepted them and they were able to be open about it. Perhaps an individual who did not transition could not because of financial constraints and those financial constraints added to their mental health issues.

But the study ultimate concludes that, for whatever reason, 44% reduction of past-year suicidal ideation:
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-s...idal-ideation/

It found that transgender people who had received one or more gender-affirming surgical procedures had a 42% reduction in the odds of experiencing past-month psychological distress, a 35% reduction in the odds of past-year tobacco smoking, and a 44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation.

This study also found that people who received all of the gender-affirming surgeries they desired had significant reductions in the odds of every adverse mental health outcome examined, including past-year suicide attempts and past-month binge alcohol use. Furthermore, compared to people who only received some of the gender-affirming surgeries they desired, people who received all of their desired surgeries experienced even more profound mental health benefits across every outcome.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Is your answer that the state gets final call on what children can and can’t do in terms of medical treatment?

Hormone blockers are also used for other conditions aside from gender dysphoria, including in children. Do you have an issue for them to be used in all circumstances as well?

And please cut it out with the “I support the trans community” stuff. You don’t. It’s obvious from your posts that you haven’t even begun to attempt to understand the life of a trans person, so please don’t assume people are gullible enough to buy your empty attempt at virtue signalling. You support the trans community so long as they act in a way you morally agree with.

It's interesting how it shifted from "stop fearmongering about children getting these treatments to "we cant let the government ban it". Usual double talk from extremists.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hormone blockers are also used for other conditions aside from gender dysphoria, including in children. Do you have an issue for them to be used in all circumstances as well?

It depends on the scenario of course. As a general rule I think the health and long term well being should guide medical decisions. I think the problem here is that's not the case of trans people seeking medical treatment. Politics and the woke mob have infiltrated an area of medicine and begun trying to shut down people with hysterical shouting of "bigot!!" when simple questions of "is this the best thing for a child still growing" is asked. You can keep shouting at me that I dont support trans people until you are blue in the face, and your keyboard is smashed from your angry self absorbed diatribe. I support trans rights and trans people. I dont need your stamp of approval.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And please cut it out with the “I support the trans community” stuff. You don’t. It’s obvious from your posts that you haven’t even begun to attempt to understand the life of a trans person, so please don’t assume people are gullible enough to buy your empty attempt at virtue signalling. You support the trans community so long as they act in a way you morally agree with.

You don't get ownership of my thoughts, friend. The only virtue signaling happening here is from you and afc.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

It's interesting how it shifted from "stop fearmongering about children getting these treatments to "we cant let the government ban it". Usual double talk from extremists.



It depends on the scenario of course. As a general rule I think the health and long term well being should guide medical decisions. I think the problem here is that's not the case of trans people seeking medical treatment. Politics and the woke mob have infiltrated an area of medicine and begun trying to shut down people with hysterical shouting of "bigot!!" when simple questions of "is this the best thing for a child still growing" is asked. You can keep shouting at me that I dont support trans people until you are blue in the face, and your keyboard is smashed from your angry self absorbed diatribe. I support trans rights and trans people. I dont need your stamp of approval.




You don't get ownership of my thoughts, friend. The only virtue signaling happening here is from you and afc.

I mean, you don’t. You can tell yourself you do, but you’re a liar.

Notice you’re the one getting emotional, talking about people banging their keyboard and extremists and conspiratorial nonsense about the woke mob infiltrating medicine? Maybe you should take a break before you get another year’s worth, friend. Nobody is trying to own your thoughts. You’re putting them on display just fine.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

This would be closer to the study you want White Out 403:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909023/


Now you can probably delve deeper into each individual. Like perhaps a person who transgendered did so because their family accepted them and they were able to be open about it. Perhaps an individual who did not transition could not because of financial constraints and those financial constraints added to their mental health issues.

But the study ultimate concludes that, for whatever reason, 44% reduction of past-year suicidal ideation:
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-s...idal-ideation/

That's really great, and I posted before I fully support a trans persons right and decision to undertake surgery if they and their doctor feel its the right course of action I'd also go so far as to say the government should help foot the bill if not cover it entirely if it indeed improves their health outcomes and lowers the burden on public health.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I mean, you don’t. You can tell yourself you do, but you’re a liar.

Notice you’re the one getting emotional, talking about people banging their keyboard and extremists and conspiratorial nonsense about the woke mob infiltrating medicine? Maybe you should take a break before you get another year’s worth, friend. Nobody is trying to own your thoughts. You’re putting them on display just fine.

Classic projection.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

It's interesting how it shifted from "stop fearmongering about children getting these treatments to "we cant let the government ban it". Usual double talk from extremists.

It depends on the scenario of course. As a general rule I think the health and long term well being should guide medical decisions. I think the problem here is that's not the case of trans people seeking medical treatment. Politics and the woke mob have infiltrated an area of medicine and begun trying to shut down people with hysterical shouting of "bigot!!" when simple questions of "is this the best thing for a child still growing" is asked. You can keep shouting at me that I dont support trans people until you are blue in the face, and your keyboard is smashed from your angry self absorbed diatribe. I support trans rights and trans people. I dont need your stamp of approval.

You don't get ownership of my thoughts, friend. The only virtue signaling happening here is from you and afc.

You are correct that politics have infiltrated an area of medicine, but it's not on the side you think it is on. Also, every time you use the word "woke" your argument loses any credibility you may think it has.

[OptimalTates]

And I think what's very important about that link is just to realize how new this information is:

Recent attempts to test the theory that gender-affirming surgeries are associated with better mental health outcomes among transgender and gender diverse people have yielded mixed results. A 2010 meta-analysis of 1,833 transgender and gender diverse people across 28 studies concluded that there was “low-quality evidence” that gender-affirming surgery would result in positive mental health outcomes. Although a 2019 study of 2,679 transgender people demonstrated an association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced utilization of mental health treatment, a correction to the study issued in 2020 reported no mental health benefits after comparison with a control group of transgender people who had not yet undergone surgery.

We're looking at science that is changing daily. That study came out in July of 2021. It's totally understandable if it didn't make your twitter feed with everything else that happened in 2021 but we should be making policy based on the best facts. The best information we have right now is that it does reduce suicide.

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Politics and the woke mob have infiltrated an area of medicine and begun trying to shut down people with hysterical shouting of "bigot!!"

As always, look for the man behind the curtain. Who gains to ban surgeries or making them medically optional? Health insurers. The puppet masters that tricked Americans into believing that they don't want medicare are also those lobbying to define gender reassignment as cosmetic to get them off the hook.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

People who say "Im a supporter of ________, but ...."

... are usually not supporters. They are just a statement qualifier to look less terrible to the afflicted audience.

It can be a tell, but it certainly can't be taken as a general rule. Just to be clear I know you're not suggesting that.

I'm worried that allies and potential allies are being turned away by the community having some rigid "you're with us or against us" ideals, and I really don't believe that's healthy. There are some very well intentioned and inclusive people that simply have trouble keeping up.

And some people are so afraid of screwing up or appearing genuinely ignorant lest they be chastised as TERF, hateful, or regressive that they don't engage in conversation, or even start to resent trans issues altogether.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Yamer

It can be a tell, but it certainly can't be taken as a general rule. Just to be clear I know you're not suggesting that.

I'm worried that allies and potential allies are being turned away by the community having some rigid "you're with us or against us" ideals, and I really don't believe that's healthy. There are some very well intentioned and inclusive people that simply have trouble keeping up.

And some people are so afraid of screwing up or appearing genuinely ignorant lest they be chastised as TERF, hateful, or regressive that they don't engage in conversation, or even start to resent trans issues altogether.

You are right, there is nuance there.

But in most cases, people who are about to make a controversial statement always tend to qualify it with something that makes them look like they're on the politically-correct side of things before jumping head-first into something they may come to regret later.

"I'm not racist, but ..." is something I've heard from various people all too much growing up in Alberta. Have heard it used for the LGBTQ2S+ community as well. This is anecdotal, of course.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are correct that politics have infiltrated an area of medicine, but it's not on the side you think it is on. Also, every time you use the word "woke" your argument loses any credibility you may think it has.

Trans activists are also trying to suppress research and medical opinions they don’t like. Read the article I linked to.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

It's interesting how it shifted from "stop fearmongering about children getting these treatments to "we cant let the government ban it". Usual double talk from extremists.



It depends on the scenario of course. As a general rule I think the health and long term well being should guide medical decisions. I think the problem here is that's not the case of trans people seeking medical treatment. Politics and the woke mob have infiltrated an area of medicine and begun trying to shut down people with hysterical shouting of "bigot!!" when simple questions of "is this the best thing for a child still growing" is asked. You can keep shouting at me that I dont support trans people until you are blue in the face, and your keyboard is smashed from your angry self absorbed diatribe. I support trans rights and trans people. I dont need your stamp of approval.




You don't get ownership of my thoughts, friend. The only virtue signaling happening here is from you and afc.

first of all no one at all is infiltrating anything, a infinitesimally small number of kids, possibly mine included, feel comfortable enough these days to try and work out who they are when they first start feeling it instead of being beaten and ridiculed into such fear and shame that they have to keep quiet and say nothing until they reach their mid twenties and can finally move far far away from home in order to find communities they feel safe enough to be open about who they are without running the risk of being beaten to death, there are no more trans kids today than there were 47 years ago when I was 13, we just dont take them out behind the bike shed anymore and put the boots to them for the slightest sign of femininity any more thank god.

As to what is best for kids, well I dont know AND THATS MY WHOLE BLOODY POINT, NEITHER DO YOU!! but only one of us is advocating interfering in the lives ,upbringing and medical treatment of children we've never met and have no knowledge of what so ever, only one of us is assuming that the kid is being brainwashed into thinking they're trans by the woke lefties on MSNBC or their radical parents.

Me I'm happy to leave it to the kids, the parents and the medical community to work out what's best for them, unlike gay conversion therapy gender reassignment has a vast body of ever changing peer reviewed research behind it, if that research says it's a bad thing then I accept it, if it says its a good thing then I accept that as well, what I dont do is fill my tiny mind with right wing homo and transphobic talking points masquerading as child protection because, I assume, they are basically just as uncomfortable with the idea that kids can be openly trans as they were when adult men started being openly gay.