Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Freeway]

I'd argue that Harley Hotchkiss' leadership role in the 2004-05 lockout did more for the Flames than Ken King has.

[indes]

I'm sure Edwards is keeping him around just because. That's Edwards shtick right? Super nice guy who gives away big salaries and high level positions?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by nik-

By what metric has he been "remarkable"?

Their revenues have apparently lagged behind the league even with the Canadian ticket price premium. They haven't had any success on the ice. The in house product has been pretty stale for years now.

I'll give you adequate. Remarkable is out of the question.

But that’s what ownership is expecting and he’s fully delivered.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by indes

I'm sure Edwards is keeping him around just because. That's Edwards shtick right? Super nice guy who gives away big salaries and high level positions?

You’re thinking of Katz.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

But that’s what ownership is expecting and he’s fully delivered.

They're expecting mediocrity?

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure they'd be happier with the extra revenue from a moderately successful team.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

By what metric has he been "remarkable"?

Their revenues have apparently lagged behind the league even with the Canadian ticket price premium. They haven't had any success on the ice. The in house product has been pretty stale for years now.

I'll give you adequate. Remarkable is out of the question.

Under his watch they've consolidated all of the local sports teams under one umbrella.

I flat out do not believe the Flames aren't profitable.

Negative newspaper coverage of the Flames and their owners is basically non existent. One owner's wife left him for KD Lang and the another runs an exceptionally questionable 'health' program currently being investigated by the AB and BC governments. The lack of scientific evidence for the program in part lead to him resigning from the chairman position of a company majority owned by another Flames owner.

This is soap opera level type stuff that has received miraculously little coverage in the alberta print and tv media. I give King an immense amount of credit for this. His media, local business and political connections have kept the spotlight off of an organization that should have several miniature scandals around it at the moment. Hard to put a dollar figure on that.

His dustup with the city helped propel star power behind an unremarkable civic candidate in Bill Smith, and his expertise in gladhanding the local business community has likely paid large dividends for CSEC that we may never hear about. Things like PPV, Flames Central, the local sportsnet deals etc etc.

He seems to also be doing this with a relative skeleton crew of staff. From what I have heard, the Flames are significantly understaffed. United's post about the meeting today and them forming an arena experience group a few weeks ago points to this as well. The arena rollout, the jerseys, fan experience, branding and positioning. None of this looks like it is being done with a large group of qualified pros, it all looks hamfisted by a skeleton crew keeping their necks above water.

He keeps eating bowls of #### with remarkable efficiency. Check how effective his talking points have been in regards to the arena. Sure, the rollout was terrible, his presentation to council seemed pretty bad, and the team hasn't had any success under his tenure, but from an ownership perspective it would be difficult to find a guy more uniquely suited to the position for this particular market with this particular set of owners.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by nik-

They're expecting mediocrity?

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure they'd be happier with the extra revenue from a moderately successful team.

Aside from the successes and failures of the on ice product, I get the sense they’re happy with mediocrity for everything else. They do give the hockey operations everything they need more or less. One could argue they might be tight on coaches salaries or buyouts but that’s nitpicking.

They could have pushed for a better jersey design except we got more of the same and the in arena experience hasn’t changed much in the 15 years I’ve been going to games. Though they continue to raise ticket prices, we don’t see it reinvested in that element of the product.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Man telling someone they should retire and spend more time with his family is making things awfully personal.
The willingness of people to simply assess who should be able to keep their job and who shouldn't astounds me sometimes, particularly when it is based on a very incomplete view of what they do and how they've been performing.

Yeah okey... as if there aren't a million different declarations that player X should retire/be bought out/gotten rid of on this board.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Under his watch they've consolidated all of the local sports teams under one umbrella.

I flat out do not believe the Flames aren't profitable.

Negative newspaper coverage of the Flames and their owners is basically non existent. One owner's wife left him for KD Lang and the another runs an exceptionally questionable 'health' program currently being investigated by the AB and BC governments. The lack of scientific evidence for the program in part lead to him resigning from the chairman position of a company majority owned by another Flames owner.

This is soap opera level type stuff that has received miraculously little coverage in the alberta print and tv media. I give King an immense amount of credit for this. His media, local business and political connections have kept the spotlight off of an organization that should have several miniature scandals around it at the moment. Hard to put a dollar figure on that.

His dustup with the city helped propel star power behind an unremarkable civic candidate in Bill Smith, and his expertise in gladhanding the local business community has likely paid large dividends for CSEC that we may never hear about. Things like PPV, Flames Central, the local sportsnet deals etc etc.

He seems to also be doing this with a relative skeleton crew of staff. From what I have heard, the Flames are significantly understaffed. United's post about the meeting today and them forming an arena experience group a few weeks ago points to this as well. The arena rollout, the jerseys, fan experience, branding and positioning. None of this looks like it is being done with a large group of qualified pros, it all looks hamfisted by a skeleton crew keeping their necks above water.

He keeps eating bowls of #### with remarkable efficiency. Check how effective his talking points have been in regards to the arena. Sure, the rollout was terrible, his presentation to council seemed pretty bad, and the team hasn't had any success under his tenure, but from an ownership perspective it would be difficult to find a guy more uniquely suited to the position for this particular market with this particular set of owners.

An incredibly sad bar for remarkable. A failed push for a mayoral candidate, a few failed business ventures, a TV deal that's likely much higher if done a couple years later. Eating bowls of #### that he serves up himself.

But the papers don't report on family drama, so we're good I guess.

Indicative of the expectations they've bred into this fanbase I guess.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Hey, I want to open up a business. I hope the city fronts me most of the cash, while I reap all the rewards. Heck, I won't even charge people for entering the premises either!


Sorry, the above is a bit cheeky, but it holds water. The ownership group wants a tonne of public funds to build themselves an arena so that they can charge more from the public and make a heck of a lot more money, and they aren't interested in property tax scenarios where the city is allowed to even recoup its' expenditures, or have a lease whereby the city recoups its' expenditures. You know who 'the city' is? Me. You. Everyone here.


The Flames' stance is silly and there is a huge chasm of difference between the two sides. They aren't 'almost there'. Not only will the owners suddenly be making a nice tidy profit on the city's 'investment', but the overall valuation of the Flames (and CSEC as a whole) will increase, and probably fairly dramatically at that.


They are not negotiating in good faith here from where I stand. Heck, they are not even negotiating. I was 'ok' with the city giving half as it would (hopefully) create a landmark and provide benefits to the citizens of Calgary, as well as be another revenue stream for the city. I am so against this project now, and more so with each passing month. I thought the Flames' opening proposal was not only terrible, but rather disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.


I used to stick up for the ownership group quite a lot on these boards, and I really feel like I have egg on my face now. There demands in conjunction with some of the shenanigans they have pulled with their lobbying (which I consider to be criminal) has made me do a complete 180 on them.



I must have said this about 100 times on these forums: "We are lucky to have such a wonderful ownership group". How wrong was I? Incredibly, it seems.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Hey, I want to open up a business. I hope the city fronts me most of the cash, while I reap all the rewards. Heck, I won't even charge people for entering the premises either!


Sorry, the above is a bit cheeky, but it holds water. The ownership group wants a tonne of public funds to build themselves an arena so that they can charge more from the public and make a heck of a lot more money, and they aren't interested in property tax scenarios where the city is allowed to even recoup its' expenditures, or have a lease whereby the city recoups its' expenditures. You know who 'the city' is? Me. You. Everyone here.


The Flames' stance is silly and there is a huge chasm of difference between the two sides. They aren't 'almost there'. Not only will the owners suddenly be making a nice tidy profit on the city's 'investment', but the overall valuation of the Flames (and CSEC as a whole) will increase, and probably fairly dramatically at that.


They are not negotiating in good faith here from where I stand. Heck, they are not even negotiating. I was 'ok' with the city giving half as it would (hopefully) create a landmark and provide benefits to the citizens of Calgary, as well as be another revenue stream for the city. I am so against this project now, and more so with each passing month. I thought the Flames' opening proposal was not only terrible, but rather disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.


I used to stick up for the ownership group quite a lot on these boards, and I really feel like I have egg on my face now. There demands in conjunction with some of the shenanigans they have pulled with their lobbying (which I consider to be criminal) has made me do a complete 180 on them.



I must have said this about 100 times on these forums: "We are lucky to have such a wonderful ownership group". How wrong was I? Incredibly, it seems.

“Disgusting” might be a bit strong, no?
And if the City were to put up half the money, the deal would be long since done.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Yeah okey... as if there aren't a million different declarations that player X should retire/be bought out/gotten rid of on this board.

Different thing as we can evaluate the job they are doing based on a lot of known items.
With all due respect you have no clue as to how good a job King is doing or not doing.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Different thing as we can evaluate the job they are doing based on a lot of known items.
With all due respect you have no clue as to how good a job King is doing or not doing.

But he is certainly entitled to have an opinion on it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Jiri Hrdina]

Sure never said he couldn’t

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

With all due respect you have no clue as to how good a job King is doing or not doing.

Well we now how well they've done in terms of game performance, we know the quality of show they provide, we know the quality and quantity of 3rd party shows they book, we have their own statements regarding profitability... in fact I would say we have many clues as to how good of a job King is doing because we consume the product and he's the guy at the top and the buck ought to stop with him (of course like most lackluster leaders he prefers to pass that buck) and it's lacking.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Different thing as we can evaluate the job they are doing based on a lot of known items.
With all due respect you have no clue as to how good a job King is doing or not doing.

As a season ticket holder, my opinion of Ken King has shifted 180 degrees in the last three years. I no longer buy his sleazy pitch. I no longer spend my money without serious buyers remorse. He has tarnished my image of what the Calgary Flames mean to this city. So stellar job, Mr. King.

The arena proposal, after having the second best deal in this city behind the Stampede board for a couple decades, is insulting.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

And if the City were to put up half the money, the deal would be long since done.

No it wouldn't. If re-read his statement you'll note the "be another revenue stream for the city" part of his statement. The dispute isn't about how much each side puts in... It's about how much each side gets back.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Which is the Flames fault. The VP of Operations and the Head of Sales clearly can still go... that they don't want to go (and the ticket thus goes down to Diane in HR) reflects on the quality of the product.

You want to make more money? Win more games.

The way I see it and have experienced it on the employee side and the client side isn't that they don't want to go, it's that there being given elsewhere in some ways.

Say a big bank, law firm or energy company has a box or club seats, previously they would generally go to higher ranking employees as a perk and to entertain clients for business etc. The costs of hosting the night goes onto the companies tab on top of the tickets. $75 popcorn, wine, scotch, prime rib dinner etc. You don't close a $500 million capital raise or celebrate a law associate becoming partner over hot dogs usually.

When the tickets are given to lower ranking employees like bank tellers, administration staff and the I.T guy than they just get the tickets. They aren't entertaining clients and the company isn't paying for anything usually.

Your bolded part though is 100% accurate. Winning and excitement make everyone want to go and lately the product has been blah.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

An incredibly sad bar for remarkable. A failed push for a mayoral candidate, a few failed business ventures, a TV deal that's likely much higher if done a couple years later. Eating bowls of #### that he serves up himself.

But the papers don't report on family drama, so we're good I guess.

Indicative of the expectations they've bred into this fanbase I guess.

I actually think your response is indicative of the fable they've bred into the fanbase that the owners concerns share the same priority as the fans concerns.

That you can't separate the legitimate business case and stewardship of very public personas for some of the wealthiest men in the country from the wins and losses record of the team they own illustrates just how successful they have been at controlling the messaging and branding as executed by King.

Being such a cynic, I find that a bit surprising coming from you, but like I've been saying, it's been effective.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I actually think your response is indicative of the fable they've bred into the fanbase that the owners concerns share the same priority as the fans concerns.

That's made clear every time there's a lockout. But fans quickly forget.