Alberta Politics Thread v2

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I guess I'll have to show my work then, unfortunately CP does not support spreadsheet functionality.

Spoiler!

Year / Inflation Rate / Inflated Dollar / Minimum Wage
1965 / 2.40% / $1.00 / $1.00
1966 / 4.20% / $1.04 / $1.00
1967 / 3.40% / $1.08 / $1.15
1968 / 3.90% / $1.12 / $1.25
1969 / 4.80% / $1.17 / $1.25
1970 / 3.00% / $1.21 / $1.55
1971 / 3.00% / $1.24 / $1.55
1972 / 4.80% / $1.30 / $1.55
1973 / 7.80% / $1.41 / $1.90
1974 / 11.00% / $1.56 / $2.00
1975 / 10.70% / $1.73 / $2.50
1976 / 7.20% / $1.85 / $2.75
1977 / 8.00% / $2.00 / $3.00
1978 / 8.90% / $2.18 / $3.00
1979 / 9.30% / $2.38 / $3.00
1980 / 10.00% / $2.62 / $3.50
1981 / 12.50% / $2.95 / $3.80
1982 / 10.90% / $3.27 / $3.80
1983 / 5.80% / $3.46 / $3.80
1984 / 4.30% / $3.61 / $3.80
1985 / 4.00% / $3.75 / $3.80
1986 / 4.10% / $3.90 / $3.80
1987 / 4.40% / $4.08 / $3.80
1988 / 3.90% / $4.23 / $4.50
1989 / 5.10% / $4.45 / $4.50
1990 / 4.80% / $4.66 / $4.50
1991 / 5.60% / $4.93 / $4.50
1992 / 1.40% / $4.99 / $5.00
1993 / 1.90% / $5.09 / $5.00
1994 / 0.10% / $5.09 / $5.00
1995 / 2.20% / $5.21 / $5.00
1996 / 1.50% / $5.28 / $5.00
1997 / 1.70% / $5.37 / $5.00
1998 / 1.00% / $5.43 / $5.40
1999 / 1.80% / $5.53 / $5.90
2000 / 2.70% / $5.67 / $5.90
2001 / 2.50% / $5.82 / $5.90
2002 / 2.20% / $5.94 / $5.90
2003 / 2.80% / $6.11 / $5.90
2004 / 1.80% / $6.22 / $5.90
2005 / 2.20% / $6.36 / $7.00
2006 / 2.00% / $6.49 / $7.00
2007 / 2.20% / $6.63 / $8.00
2008 / 2.30% / $6.78 / $8.40
2009 / 0.30% / $6.80 / $8.80
2010 / 1.80% / $6.92 / $8.80
2011 / 2.90% / $7.12 / $9.40
2012 / 1.50% / $7.23 / $9.75
2013 / 0.90% / $7.30 / $9.95

PVinflation = $(1.00)
FVinflation = $7.30
N = 48
I/Yinflation = 4.23%

PVminwage = $(1.00)
FVminwage = $9.95
N = 48
I/Yminwage = 4.90%

The minimum wage in 2014 would have been lower if it would have been increased annually with the rate of inflation since its inception. This is an objective fact. In fact, there were only 14 years where the minimum wage did not outpace inflation.

In 1965 the minimum wage was $1/hour and inflation during that same year was 2.4%, that means to keep pace with inflation the minimum wage would need to be increased to $1.024 for 1966. Now clearly our currency doesn’t allow for $1.024 to be paid without rounding, which you’ve done in your calculation. The problem is that $1.02 isn’t a 2.4% increase on $1, it is only a 2% increase. While it is necessary to do the rounding so that the rate of pay can actually be paid in our currency, you still need to include the amount that was lost from rounding when making the subsequent annual calculations otherwise those gains and the inflation which would subsequently also be applied to those gains will be lost permanently. Those numbers may seem inconsequential, a quarter of a penny here and there doesn’t seem like much but over time it adds up, especially when inflation is applied to those gains as well. If you recalculate your figures without rounding, by the end of 2014(2.6% CPI that year) you end up close to $11/hour. That 10% difference in pay may not have a big impact on the quality of life or economic mobility for someone earning over $100k, but the same can’t be said for someone earning minimum wage.

At the market minimum wage level.

If the market rate doesn’t provide enough for the employee to cover the costs of basic needs, do you still not consider it to be exploitive?

Yes, greed plays a factor in certain cases. There are a certain percentage of greedy employees and a certain percentage of greedy employees.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant to type “employers” in one of the places where you wrote “employees”

Keep in mind that firms are not inherently bad nor good, they're simply a reflection of their managers and directors. In my experience, the majority of successful firms act with the best interests of their employees taken into account.

Contrary to popular belief on this board I don’t actually think all employers are bad. It’s actually refreshing to hear someone say that in their experience the majority of employers act with the best interests of their employees. In fact I would prefer to hear it more often, which is why I advocate for workers rights. If you don’t mind me asking, has the majority of your experience been working in lower paying/manual labour environments or higher paying/corporate environments?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

In 1965 the minimum wage was $1/hour and inflation during that same year was 2.4%, that means to keep pace with inflation the minimum wage would need to be increased to $1.024 for 1966. Now clearly our currency doesn’t allow for $1.024 to be paid without rounding, which you’ve done in your calculation. The problem is that $1.02 isn’t a 2.4% increase on $1...

https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/re...on-calculator/

Inflation calculator from bank of Canada says 1 in 1965 is worth 7.28 in 2013. So a little different but not much. Maybe with rounding the inflation percentage also it made a difference.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Honest question, what does the NDP's lightbulb/showerhead racket pay their employees?

It's strictly a tax driven business with no tangible profits to speak of.

As a detractor of that Energy Efficiency Alberta progam, I'm not really sure what you're getting at with regards to minimum wage.

I would say the employees are paid too much, because they shouldn't have existed in the first place so anything over 0.

But just because I am a proponent of the $15 minimum wage increase doesn't mean I support all NDP policies and social programs...Or the party itself.

[GirlySports]

i said it in a previous thread. if the minimum wage is too high then there are probably less jobs and kids to enter the workforce, the stepping stone. We then have career minimum-wagers through no fault of their own.

You can't have a separate minimum wage for teens doing the same job as an adult, but a HS kid looking to make a few bucks at McDonald's doesn't need the motivation of a living wage, they will be happy with the $10/hour. Not sure how to resolve that issue.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

i said it in a previous thread. if the minimum wage is too high then there are probably less jobs and kids to enter the workforce, the stepping stone. We then have career minimum-wagers through no fault of their own.

You can't have a separate minimum wage for teens doing the same job as an adult, but a HS kid looking to make a few bucks at McDonald's doesn't need the motivation of a living wage, they will be happy with the $10/hour. Not sure how to resolve that issue.

Why not? They do it in some countries in Europe:


https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publ...ages-in-europe


Click on "structural characteristics". It makes a lot of sense to do it that way.

[GirlySports]

would that work here? could be some outrage on both sides, the kids who want more or the adults are aren't being hired.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Honest question, what does the NDP's lightbulb/showerhead racket pay their employees?

It's strictly a tax driven business with no tangible profits to speak of.

Its a per-job rate but I have one client who did it and made about $45K, but that wasnt for the whole year.

He also got moving expenses because he was hired in Ontario and moved here for the job.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

would that work here? could be some outrage on both sides, the kids who want more or the adults are aren't being hired.

“Could be some outrage” could be said about literally every decision a government makes around money.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

would that work here? could be some outrage on both sides, the kids who want more or the adults are aren't being hired.

Are Europeans some different species who are able to adapt to things easier than us? Because this seems like a good system. Plus outraged kids don't matter, they can't vote.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

i said it in a previous thread. if the minimum wage is too high then there are probably less jobs and kids to enter the workforce, the stepping stone. We then have career minimum-wagers through no fault of their own.

You can't have a separate minimum wage for teens doing the same job as an adult, but a HS kid looking to make a few bucks at McDonald's doesn't need the motivation of a living wage, they will be happy with the $10/hour. Not sure how to resolve that issue.

Also kids don’t get jobs anymore. (That is hyperbole). But teen employment is down throughout North America regardless of minimum wage and in general due to a lack of desire and not a lack of jobs. I’m too lazy to provide sources though

[GGG]

I think the concept that the government should not be subsidizing jobs is false. The market for employees will be what it will be and they should be paid what the market will bare. The government through taxation of higher income earners and corporations should make up the difference.

We have public funded healthcare and education and we do not expect the tax payments from someone earning minimum wage to cover these expenses so why do we expect to cover their living expenses?

Targeting government subsidy makes far more sense than a blanket minimum wage.

[GirlySports]

I don't buy that it is a lack of desire because volunteering is through the roof and I see kids there because there are a) no jobs or b) they want jobs or volunteer position specific to there field of study. Go to any festival and you'll see a boatload of volunteers. Pride Week next week is looking for a tonne of volunteers. Teen employment is down but does that count volunteers since volunteer experience on a resume is considered equal to work experience.

For example, in the past we never had volunteers for recycling. Each neighbourhood has a recycling day and every festival has recycling bins with volunteers showing you how to do it. Volunteers for social organizations such as food bank and other charities have also increased.

And companies take advantage of this. I saw a volunteer position posted for a web designer! Web designer! that's a real job!

I think that everything funnels down. There are not enough top professional jobs for people so they take over the mid-level jobs. Which pushes the mid-level people to the minimum wage space and turn those into careers. Then the kids who worked minimum wage go and take over the volunteer space. This is my 'too many degrees' argument.

If I owned a company and paid two kids $10/hr minimum wage, if that wage was raised to $15, then I'd just have 1 position and turn the other one into a volunteer. That saves me $5 an hr!

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Are Europeans some different species who are able to adapt to things easier than us? Because this seems like a good system. Plus outraged kids don't matter, they can't vote.

I think you need to look at the whole picture, some Europeans are more equal then others and this has always been the case. Its a great system for some...

https://theintercept.com/2018/06/29/...um-immigrants/

"But it hasn’t been all rainbows and butterflies. I quickly realized that here, too, in the heart of Europe, in the shadows of the continent’s most prestigious institutions and the European diplomatic bubble, lives a sizable, struggling African underclass. This is the same African diaspora that Belgium’s center forward Romelu Lukaku was born into."

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't buy that it is a lack of desire because volunteering is through the roof and I see kids there because there are a) no jobs or b) they want jobs or volunteer position specific to there field of study. Go to any festival and you'll see a boatload of volunteers. Pride Week next week is looking for a tonne of volunteers. Teen employment is down but does that count volunteers since volunteer experience on a resume is considered equal to work experience.

Far fewer teens work today compared with 30 years ago, and it's down to a changing culture. It used to be the norm that once kids reached a certain age - 15 or 16 - they were expected to work for their spending money. Places like food courts used to be staffed entirely by teenagers. Landscaping was another job performed by 16-21 year olds.

I'm guessing the change had something to do with the rise of 2-income households, where teen income is no longer needed by the family. School is more competitive now, too, so parents don't want their kids working on weeknights. Then there's the general tightening control over childhood - a lot of people don't want their 16 year old taking a bus to work at a mall several nights a week.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the concept that the government should not be subsidizing jobs is false. The market for employees will be what it will be and they should be paid what the market will bare. The government through taxation of higher income earners and corporations should make up the difference.

We have public funded healthcare and education and we do not expect the tax payments from someone earning minimum wage to cover these expenses so why do we expect to cover their living expenses?

Targeting government subsidy makes far more sense than a blanket minimum wage.

I agree. If you want higher incomes, it should be the responsibility of government policy, not thrown on the backs of small business.

The more efficient the market, the more jobs that will be created by small business. Let the market determine what the wages need to be for the labour created.

And then if subsidy is required, that should be a burden of the state.

Forcing artificially high wages on small businesses reduces efficiency and thus the total number of jobs created.

[bossy22]

35 years ago the town I grew up in hired 10 of us to cut grass in the parks. We pushed lawnmowers and got $3.80/hr. Now they have one guy on a tractor who does it all...I have no idea what point I was trying to make.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't buy that it is a lack of desire because volunteering is through the roof and I see kids there because there are a) no jobs or b) they want jobs or volunteer position specific to there field of study. Go to any festival and you'll see a boatload of volunteers. Pride Week next week is looking for a tonne of volunteers. Teen employment is down but does that count volunteers since volunteer experience on a resume is considered equal to work experience.

For example, in the past we never had volunteers for recycling. Each neighbourhood has a recycling day and every festival has recycling bins with volunteers showing you how to do it. Volunteers for social organizations such as food bank and other charities have also increased.

And companies take advantage of this. I saw a volunteer position posted for a web designer! Web designer! that's a real job!

I think that everything funnels down. There are not enough top professional jobs for people so they take over the mid-level jobs. Which pushes the mid-level people to the minimum wage space and turn those into careers. Then the kids who worked minimum wage go and take over the volunteer space. This is my 'too many degrees' argument.

If I owned a company and paid two kids $10/hr minimum wage, if that wage was raised to $15, then I'd just have 1 position and turn the other one into a volunteer. That saves me $5 an hr!

I think you are making my point. Kids don’t want the typical summer jobs. They would rather volunteer for things they like or in their field of study. DQ and McDonald’s it Tims isn’t attractive.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree. If you want higher incomes, it should be the responsibility of government policy, not thrown on the backs of small business.

The more efficient the market, the more jobs that will be created by small business. Let the market determine what the wages need to be for the labour created.

And then if subsidy is required, that should be a burden of the state.

Forcing artificially high wages on small businesses reduces efficiency and thus the total number of jobs created.

The key is to be willing to tax the benficiaries of the low wages which is the upper middle class seeing lower prices for everything and corporations realizing more profit.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think you need to look at the whole picture, some Europeans are more equal then others and this has always been the case. Its a great system for some...

https://theintercept.com/2018/06/29/...um-immigrants/

"But it hasn’t been all rainbows and butterflies. I quickly realized that here, too, in the heart of Europe, in the shadows of the continent’s most prestigious institutions and the European diplomatic bubble, lives a sizable, struggling African underclass. This is the same African diaspora that Belgium’s center forward Romelu Lukaku was born into."

I'm not sure what that has to do with variable minimum wage, but I'll admit to not reading the whole thing. My point was that some countries do it, so it isn't some impossible plan.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Far fewer teens work today compared with 30 years ago, and it's down to a changing culture. It used to be the norm that once kids reached a certain age - 15 or 16 - they were expected to work for their spending money. Places like food courts used to be staffed entirely by teenagers. Landscaping was another job performed by 16-21 year olds.

I'm guessing the change had something to do with the rise of 2-income households, where teen income is no longer needed by the family. School is more competitive now, too, so parents don't want their kids working on weeknights. Then there's the general tightening control over childhood - a lot of people don't want their 16 year old taking a bus to work at a mall several nights a week.

Also the rise in immigrants. It's easier to staff a few reliable and hard-working immigrants to work 40 hrs / week than a boat load of teens part-time who may or may not make it to an early shift on Sat or Sun morning.