Climate change and human responsibility

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by zamler

Don't think it matters. Across the spectrum of industry and politics climate change is largely accepted as being incontrovertible. Meaning, there is no excuse for not affecting change.

I think it's more nuanced. Industry and politics agree it will be real. But I still see everyone arguing the forest fires were due to bad forestry practices, foods happened before and drought is nothing new. I don't think it's accepted yet that this is real and it's getting ugly. The damage from this flood will be in the terms of billions. On top of the billions from the fires. This is going to become common. Where's that money coming from?


But don't you dare think about making any policy that might hurt the economy

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I think it's more nuanced. Industry and politics agree it will be real.

This is a head scratcher. The prevailing narrative is not, climate change will only happen sometime in the future.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by zamler

This is a head scratcher. The prevailing narrative is not, climate change will only happen sometime in the future.

If everyone were in agreement, there'd be more movement.

"The boat is sinking! Everyone help bail out!"
"Ok, but don't use my bucket please, I need it to hold on to my money"


That doesn't sound like someone who sees the urgency of what's happening

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

If everyone were in agreement, there'd be more movement.

Why? No one is stopping government and industry from moving away from carbon belching and generally polluting practices. Especially industry.

"The boat is sinking! Everyone help bail out!"
"Ok, but don't use my bucket please, I need it to hold on to my money"


That doesn't sound like someone who sees the urgency of what's happening

Who are you referring to here?

[Street Pharmacist]

I'm referring to the fact that our current trajectory takes us into pretty awful territory. The 1.5C target is all but impossible now and the resistance to policy is getting stronger all the time. In the US they can't get any of their big climate stuff done (though admittedly more than ever). We need big changes much faster than anyone is doing save for a few European countries

[Skyceman]

Swiss bank Credit Suisse calls on people to give up red meat, beer, coffee, video games, and vastly reduce the use of showers and dishwashers, to be carbon neutral.

https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-...al-202110.html

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Skyceman

Swiss bank Credit Suisse calls on people to give up red meat, beer, coffee, video games, and vastly reduce the use of showers and dishwashers, to be carbon neutral.

https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-...al-202110.html

Says the company still financing coal plants

Asking people to sacrifice on their own will only be bumper stickers for those who want to do nothing. This is counter productive

[Azure]

But of course right on par with how the elites are handling everything.

We should make personal sacrifices while they pad the bottom line.

[CliffFletcher]

Whether they’re voluntary measures or imposed through public policy, people are going to take a hit to their standards of living as we transition away from fossil fuels. There may come a time when alternative energy sources are as cheap and reliable as fossil fuels. But that’s decades away. Until then, energy will cost more, and that means everything will cost more - travel, food, clothing, heating, electricity.

[Ozy_Flame]

If costs are going up and day-to-day life is to be carbon neutral, then I see it as good grounds to be less consumptive. Walk and bike more, drive less. Use public transit. Reduce meat and dairy consumption. Grow your own vegetables. Live in smaller houses with shared/communal facilities like courtyards and parks. Design houses with more natural light and sustainable materials. Re-purpose household items for extended use.

All of these ways can help reduce bills, lower consumption habits and promote preventative healthcare through better choices. And these are just a few.

Frankly I think these kind of changes are both unavoidable and desirable. The Western world particularly has become so consumptive there's no way in 100 years this could sustain.

That said, I'm holding out hope that there will be some extraterrestrial intervention or dark project tech to provide game-changing technology or course correction. I don't have faith humankind can save itself from its own undoing.

[Swift]

The forgotten oil ads that told us climate change was nothing

Man, that 1962 Humble Oil ad is something else.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

If costs are going up and day-to-day life is to be carbon neutral, then I see it as good grounds to be less consumptive. Walk and bike more, drive less. Use public transit. Reduce meat and dairy consumption. Grow your own vegetables. Live in smaller houses with shared/communal facilities like courtyards and parks. Design houses with more natural light and sustainable materials. Re-purpose household items for extended use.

All of these ways can help reduce bills, lower consumption habits and promote preventative healthcare through better choices. And these are just a few.

Frankly I think these kind of changes are both unavoidable and desirable. The Western world particularly has become so consumptive there's no way in 100 years this could sustain.

That said, I'm holding out hope that there will be some extraterrestrial intervention or dark project tech to provide game-changing technology or course correction. I don't have faith humankind can save itself from its own undoing.

Most of those things are pie in the sky BS ideas as far as global emissions are concerned.

If you want real change, it needs policy decisions that massively reduce emissions quickly. Also, if China & India are going to increase the amount of coal they burn, eating less meat in North America won't make a bloody difference.

Building codes, energy production changes, carbon taxes to incentive less emissions.

But of course 10 years from now we'll keep saying 'but guys, quit eating so much steak. OMG.'

[Ozy_Flame]

Nah. Personal choices are a big step forward to building a mantra of sustainable living, which will help set hearts and minds to larger initiatives in industry and macro-level change. Real change starts with the individual.

Countries and companies are social structures made up of individuals. Start at the core.

This whole "can't stop, won't stop if China and India are doing it" needs to die off. It's an easy cop-out for taking responsibility as a native steward to this planet. It's incredulous whataboutism and deflection.

[flamesfever]

Times have been too good for too long in NA. In order to live the good life, we have given up a large part of our productive capacity, in order to buy cheap goods from China. And in so doing we have participated in the pollution of our planet and created a powerful enemy.

IMO there has to be penalties or consequences for pollution. Just eliminating coal from the energy mix would be a huge contribution in fighting Climate Change.

Until we stop buying stuff from China, who are producing a huge portion of the goods we consume, using coal as their energy source, we have to admit we are party to the pollution by these countries. If we truly want to stop pollution we have to stop this practice.

The only way I see this happening is to put tariffs on Chinese goods, which would obviously have extreme economic and political repercussions. However, IMO this may be the only way to affect change, as it relates to the use of coal by China.

Of course selling China our lower polluting LNG to displace the coal would help. However, the people running our country do not have the brain power to figure that one out.

[Street Pharmacist]

No, is more that China would prefer to burn it's own coal than switch to Western o&g

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Nah. Personal choices are a big step forward to building a mantra of sustainable living, which will help set hearts and minds to larger initiatives in industry and macro-level change. Real change starts with the individual.

Countries and companies are social structures made up of individuals. Start at the core.

This whole "can't stop, won't stop if China and India are doing it" needs to die off. It's an easy cop-out for taking responsibility as a native steward to this planet. It's incredulous whataboutism and deflection.

Ok, but asking people to sacrifice doesn't work. It's a great idea, but it hasn't and won't work. If you legislate carbon prices into cement for example, people will choose green cement. Without that, almost no one does

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Ok, but asking people to sacrifice doesn't work. It's a great idea, but it hasn't and won't work. If you legislate carbon prices into cement for example, people will choose green cement. Without that, almost no one does

I'm more about people recognizing the need for change and the personal responsibility that comes with it at the individual level, and recognizing the relationship between the micro and macro-scales of change. The "pre-sales" stage, if you will.

Cultural buy-in is the first step. How that happens I'll leave to the experts on policy and governance in a democratic framework composed of people who also equally recognize the personal responsibility that it has to start with.

[Azure]

Most of the personal changes you think people should make are debatable anyways in terms of making an overall difference to global emissions.

If there is a tax on carbon, it will incentivize less carbon emissions. Across every industry.

That is the proper way of reducing emissions. Not telling people to stop eating steak.

In fact, when it comes to food, we should be encouraging people to eat more locally grown produce, including meat. Your entire pitch is not based in reality.

[flamesfever]

IMO expecting to be off all fossil fuels in 30 years is absolutely ludicrous. As I see it, wind, solar, and battery driven electrical cars, although at first glance seem like they are the right thing to do, may end up creating just as many problems, as they will solve. In my mind, it's only an easy, seemingly palatable way to maintain our present cushy existence, and at the same time make us feel like we are doing something about Climate Change.

Until there is some new energy discovery, in my mind, trying to do things like getting off coal, using more nuclear, geothermal, tidal energy etc., reforestation, regulated birth control, etc. are some of the more plausible means to fight Climate Change.

[Ozy_Flame]

Nope. Sorry Azure. You might need to pay a little more attention rather than read what you want to hear from me.

Change starts with the individual. The character it takes to implement change then flows upwards to companies, organizations, and governments. Those macro-level institutions then implement the necessary rules and structure to enforce such change. But these rules are made with buy-in that we are all responsible for our actions - both high and low.

If you think I'm arguing against carbon taxes, then I'll get my crayons to draw it out for you. Carbon taxes are a good result of motivated individuals who also desire change. We need more people with that kind of motivation.

As for the beef you have with eating less meat, here's some additional context while you enjoy your prime rib. And I say this as a guy who finds it hard to quite eating meat.

ou want to reduce the carbon footprint of your food? Focus on what you eat, not whether your food is local

Climate change food calculator: What's your diet's carbon footprint?

At least eat more chicken!

Choosing chicken over beef cuts our carbon footprints a surprising amount