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[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by RichieRich

I know a few people that own/manage a few (1-3) rental properties. They’re not slum lords. They’re pretty normal and they’ve been scared for a few years and moreso now. They have not been making huge dollars, perhaps 3-6% ROI which really has not been great compared to markets since 2008.

Not sure why their scared, if they can't handle the measly 3-6% of ROI they can always sell for a large profit! I bought my first house in 1994 for $122k, it's been a rental since I paid it off a few years ago and I bought a small condo for myself of which the rental almost completely pays for, I have a great family renting the house but they just can't afford a house worth $550-600k, I haven't raised their rent in the 3 years they've been there but when I sell it in a few years for retirement I think I'll feel like a criminal.

[RichieRich]

I'm certainly guilty of falling victim to some items on that list, to varying degrees.

It's a question of to what degree and do some of us learn from our mistakes?

At the same time, are some of us able to take advantage of opportunities out there when they arise or are we so busy living day to day head down @$$ end up?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Not sure why their scared, if they can't handle the measly 3-6% of ROI they can always sell for a large profit! I bought my first house in 1994 for $122k, it's been a rental since I paid it off a few years ago and I bought a small condo for myself of which the rental almost completely pays for, I have a great family renting the house but they just can't afford a house worth $550-600k, I haven't raised their rent in the 3 years they've been there but when I sell it in a few years for retirement I think I'll feel like a criminal.

That depends on when you bought. I bought my house in 2008 - I think it's been worth more than what I paid for it for about the last 8 months out of the 14 years we've owned it.

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Not sure why their scared, if they can't handle the measly 3-6% of ROI they can always sell for a large profit! I bought my first house in 1994 for $122k, it's been a rental since I paid it off a few years ago and I bought a small condo for myself of which the rental almost completely pays for, I have a great family renting the house but they just can't afford a house worth $550-600k, I haven't raised their rent in the 3 years they've been there but when I sell it in a few years for retirement I think I'll feel like a criminal.

Sounds like you got in at a great time and were fortunate to be have the means to do so, both financial and big-picture awareness. I'm moreso concerned for those who bought into the market the last 1-2 years when they could barely qualify at the low interest rate and their rental ROI was 3-6% at that time. Housing bubble has burst and in free fall in some areas of Canada now with more sellers than buyers too, interest rates will have doubled soon enough, other costs escalated dramatically, they haven't raised rent much/any.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It’s a fundamental human right. Literally everyone needs shelter. It’s one of the basic tenets of survival.

I agree the current system is stupid but you don’t need to own a home to have shelter.

[RichieRich]

Here’s a pertinent blog that also Tackles some of this discussion including rates:
https://www.greaterfool.ca/page/2/

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by RichieRich

Here’s a pertinent blog that also Tackles some of this discussion including rates:
https://www.greaterfool.ca/page/2/

First line from the first paragraph of the article:

Our central bank’s spine grows and stiffens daily.

Pierre is that you?

[opendoor]

Garth Turner, LOL. He has been predicting a housing crash for the last 15 years or so. He wrote this in 2012 back when the average house price was $350K (it's now ~$750K):

Was it only a few days ago some economists were calling my words “bunk”? Saying it would take some kind of external disaster, “a major economic recession, a downturn, or perhaps a financial crisis, a political crisis,” to rattle real estate?


You’d think economists would be able to see what average folks do. Prices are ridiculous, the economy’s barely moving, wages and salaries are flat, gas and food costs a fortune and we all have too much damn debt. Besides, 70% of Canadians already have houses, so how much actual demand is there? Meanwhile credit’s been tightened thanks to F & the Peckerettes, so mortgages are more expensive and more elusive for first-time buyers. Cash-back loans are gone. HELOC limits have been slashed and equity-based mortgages are being phased out. Like, what did these guys expect? Why should anyone buy right now?

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Garth Turner, LOL. He has been predicting a housing crash for the last 15 years or so. He wrote this in 2012 back when the average house price was $350K (it's now ~$750K):

Heh heh, that’s true.
He’s had a lot of wise cautionary words along the way. And some not so great stuff but overall his advice is generally conservative and diversified and well intentioned IMO.
Does not seem to be a Pierre supporter though.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Why?

Because considering the alternatives, home ownership is the one that actually benefits citizens. What are the alternatives?

Large scale rental communities? So you have a population with zero control over their housing, or the market factors controlling their expenses with zero long term benefit for those expenses, who are beholden to the whim of the landlord. But hey, at least the largest regional employers of these massive rental communities can make sure their wages are enough to cover rent, as long as the employees work 40+ hours a week but low enough to keep any locals from handing down wealth to their next generation, lest the cycle of serfdom be broke.

Except it’s even worse than serfdom. At least those guys at least had some access to fresh food, and were less likely to be uprooted because the lords found someone who would toil nearly as hard for a half pound of wheat a month less.

Call me a crazy commie, I’d rather Canadian cities were full of people who worked for control and investment of their own lives and futures, building vibrant communities where rentals were an option for those who it made sense, not BlackStone backed developers strategically building to maximize profit with modern day ghettos subsidized by those very same renters who have been locked out of their former neighbourhoods.

If you oppose the notion that hope ownership should be attainable (note, no one said a right), then it must be one of two thing:
You feel that real estate is an investment vehicle first and foremost, and you have no problem with a pay to play proposition. Odds this just happens to coincide with hundreds of thousands of capital miraculously finding its way into your hands because of nothing but dumb luck (read, having a job in 1970 and buying a house as a given); or,
You’re so god damn bitter at your inability that you don’t want anyone else to. Spite, nothing more.

If there’s a third choice, I’d love to hear it.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I agree the current system is stupid but you don’t need to own a home to have shelter.

Yep. Replied before I could.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Yep. Replied before I could.

yeah except if property is too expensive to own it's also probably going to be unreasonably expensive to rent. its not like its decoupled.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

yeah except if property is too expensive to own it's also probably going to be unreasonably expensive to rent. its not like its decoupled.

Except when layoffs start happening and finding good renters become a challenge, who knows if government protects the renters from being on the street.

Rents spiked in 2008 Phoenix just before housing crash.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I agree the current system is stupid but you don’t need to own a home to have shelter.

So what? Doesn’t change the fact that everyone deserves home ownership.

People should be free to choose to own or rent but everyone should be able to own, even those working min wage jobs.

Owning a home should be as inalienable a right as access to healthcare.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by 81MC

If you oppose the notion that hope ownership should be attainable (note, no one said a right).

Cecil definitely said home ownership should be a right before you made this post and doubled down on it after.

Which is a stupid idea, because the only way to guarantee that is to give people houses. Aside from the "who pays for that" question, a huge percentage of people given a house will treat it like crap.

Owning housing absolutely should be attainable for the average family, but it isn't unreasonable it require savings and hard work. The current system has run away from average families. The only way to fix it is to massively increase supply to drive speculation out of the markets. But that is mostly a municipal (zoning) and provincial (green zone/agricultural zone) policies. Higher interest rates will help somewhat but to fix the problem there needs to be a supply response.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Cecil definitely said home ownership should be a right before you made this post and doubled down on it after.

Which is a stupid idea, because the only way to guarantee that is to give people houses. Aside from the "who pays for that" question, a huge percentage of people given a house will treat it like crap.

Owning housing absolutely should be attainable for the average family, but it isn't unreasonable it require savings and hard work. The current system has run away from average families. The only way to fix it is to massively increase supply to drive speculation out of the markets. But that is mostly a municipal (zoning) and provincial (green zone/agricultural zone) policies. Higher interest rates will help somewhat but to fix the problem there needs to be a supply response.

What are you even talking about? The only stupid idea here is you suggesting that people aren’t trying hard enough. Yeah, that’s why they don’t have homes. Pull up those bootstraps and lay-off the avocado toast.

Home ownership is not accessible. Full stop. Not for the average family, not for low income families. The ability to buy a home should be available to everyone. Duh they’ll have to save and pay their mortgage. No one said all housing should be free (although I’m not opposed to that either). But let’s start at everyone should be able to buy a home.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Home ownership is not accessible. Full stop. Not for the average family, not for low income families. The ability to buy a home should be available to everyone. Duh they’ll have to save and pay their mortgage. No one said all housing should be free (although I’m not opposed to that either). But let’s start at everyone should be able to buy a home.

So how do we as a society guarantee that someone who works at Tim Hortons can own property in Vancouver or Toronto?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Cecil definitely said home ownership should be a right before you made this post and doubled down on it after.

Which is a stupid idea, because the only way to guarantee that is to give people houses. Aside from the "who pays for that" question, a huge percentage of people given a house will treat it like crap.

Owning housing absolutely should be attainable for the average family, but it isn't unreasonable it require savings and hard work. The current system has run away from average families. The only way to fix it is to massively increase supply to drive speculation out of the markets. But that is mostly a municipal (zoning) and provincial (green zone/agricultural zone) policies. Higher interest rates will help somewhat but to fix the problem there needs to be a supply response.

I agree that heavily increasing supply is a good solution.

But I think you’re wrong in the sense that we can believe everyone deserves to own a home without it being a stupid idea simply because there are hurdles to making that a reality. And “people will treat it like crap” is an incredibly stupid retort, as many owners and renters treat their home like crap as it is. It’s not your business how people treat their home, nor is it mine.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So how do we as a society guarantee that someone who works at Tim Hortons can own property in Vancouver or Toronto?

Wasn't it the federal Liberals recently proposing a plan for government offered rent to own programs to get more people into homes?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Wasn't it the federal Liberals recently proposing a plan for government offered rent to own programs to get more people into homes?

I can't remember which country in Europe it was but the government essentially rented the property and a portion of the rent went towards a down payment to buy after 3-5 years.