If you were just a little bit self-aware you might understand why I, and many others here by the looks of things, are sick of your liberal left is dangerous schtick and you don't like that you're getting more and more push back on the bs you post.
I don't have a problem with the liberal left. I have a problem with the illiberal left. What we're experiencing today isn't a tug-of-war between the left and the right; it's an assault on liberalism from both the left and right. And if the impulses of the illiberal left go unchecked, they'll undermine liberal values and institutions sufficiently to make a takeover by the populist right that much easier. I'm far from the only person to recognize this threat.
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Originally Posted by longsuffering
One would never know that by reading your posts. You continually make it sound like SJWs are the biggest threat democracy facing is today.
I don't blindly support the left, particularly SJWs but I can identify where the serious threats to personal freedom and democracy originate and I'll prioritize resolving the real and immediate threats over worrying about the threat presented by political correctness run amok.
As a Canadian in 2018, the illiberalism of the far left is closer to me, to my social milieu, than the illiberalism of the far right. I'm not American, and I don't have an especially strong interest in American politics. The American far right is only marginally closer to me, socially and politically, than Putin's regime. Both terrible. And both cultures I regard myself as having essentially no influence over, and so don't feel any particular responsibility to call out*.
Of course I do call it out on the very rare occasion when someone in my social circle defends Trump, or expresses nativist sentiments. But as an educated, liberal, urban Canadian under the age of 50, that's extremely rare. And how often are illiberal far right ideas expressed on this board? On the few occasions it does happen, the poster is immediately dogpiled. And I don't see the point in being the 12th or 20th person to express my disapproval with scathing remark. But you can consider me there in spirit if you like.
As I've already said, I'm not the sort of person who gathers together with people who share my beliefs and calls out those other people over there. I find it pointless. I call out what I see as the blind spots and unchallenged assumptions of the company I'm in. But Stephen Fry put this all far better than I can:
* As an aside, I think I'm the only one on this board who has criticized Ovechkin for chumming around with Putin, a leader who is far worse even than Trump. And yet I'm confident that if an American NHL star expressed support for Trump and exchanged Christmas presents with him, he would be subject to a tidal wave of criticism and denunciation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 09-25-2018 at 09:56 PM.
* As an aside, I think I'm the only one on this board who has criticized Ovechkin for chumming around with Putin, a leader who is far worse even than Trump. And yet I'm confident that if an American NHL star expressed support for Trump and exchanged Christmas presents with him, he would be subject to a tidal wave of criticism and denunciation.
Oh, Come On.
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Originally Posted by Locke
I am far from 'outraged' but this is a big deal. There are people who genuinely believe that Putin rigged the US election for Trump, and Putin has a shadow over him. He is not the nicest person in the world by all accounts.
Its not as though I can blame Ovechkin for being patriotic, its just that his fierce loyalty not just to Russia, but Putin specifically, seems....I just dont know, theres just something off there.
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Originally Posted by Beninho
Except our Prime Minister doesn't kill political opponents and Journalists while invading sovereign countries.
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Originally Posted by Fan in Exile
What "narrative". Are you resentful of facts? Am I allowed to believe that Putin is a psychopathic Machiavellian autocrat and also believe that "we" are not a beacon of good?
Not outraged at Ovechkin but I think he's an idiot and I've lost a lot of respect for him. Dumb political opinions are a good enough reason for me not to cheer for a hockey player. When you make your political support vocal and public, you open yourself up to criticism for your political opinions. Too bad. Ovie otherwise seems to have a big heart. Sad to see him wasting his voice and his energy on supporting Putin.
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Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov
To be fair though, Ovechkin is a meathead hockey player. I doubt he even has a high school level education. Putin is smart going after these uneducated fools.
and LOL to the Putin is not evil. Harper was 'evil' but he never poisoned opponents or journalists, nor killed his own citizens to start a fake war with Chechnya.
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Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov
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Originally Posted by Beninho
Ah so because we are allies with the United States it's no problem that Putin invaded Ukraine. How about his jailing of political opponents and human rights activists? How about his active oppression on Gays in Russia. He's a dictator and anyone who supports him deserves criticism.
If I were a Russian the last guy I'd go around criticizing is Vladimir Putin, lest you end up "disappeared".
You gotta know what side of the bread your butter is on.
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Originally Posted by Textcritic
Has anyone in this thread actually indicated that they think as such? There is a massive difference between bureaucratic corruption that infects Western democracies and the megalomaniacal regime of Vladimir Putin.
Not remotely level. There are huge differences between levels of corruption and evil that need to be acknowledged.
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Originally Posted by rubecube
You have to be completely ignorant of international politics or a Putin-bot to actually believe that Canada and the U.S. are equivalent to Putin's Russia. Jesus Christ, people.
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Originally Posted by Fan in Exile
The issue is not which country is worse. I would venture to say that the US has done more worldwide harm than Russia. But a rich athlete living in the US for 12 years using his fame to prop up someone like Putin has little to do with love of country. I wouldn't care for vocally pro-Trump athletes either.
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Originally Posted by Jay Random
Ask any Eastern European, or read The Black Book of Communism. The Soviet regime was responsible for killing more people than Nazi Germany, and it's not even close. That was Russia.
The ignorance of your statement beggars credulity.
That was all within the first 40 posts of one thread on the topic of Ovechkin and Putin. You were not the sole critic you are now claiming to be.
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Cliff, you doth protestith too much. You do have a problem with the left, and you voice it every chance you get. Everyone can see it, and it shows in the very questionable videos and articles you post. You routinely point a finger at others for having an agenda, but the one with the agenda is clearly yourself. You claim one thing, but your research and commentary say another. How are you not seeing this?
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Since you wanted examples, have you ever heard of Jewish guilt? Have you ever heard of the practice of restoring honor - saving face - in Asian cultures (Japanese, Chinese)? Islam also has a similar tradition, although it is much more aggressive and free to use violence. Have you heard of karma, and having to live a good life to make up for bad karma (Taoism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism)? Have you also heard of the many traditions of honoring previous generations, alive and dead, through cultural celebration (Latin and African)? Since you are so focused on the superiority of Christianity, you might want to be aware that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions borrow greatly from Sumerian cultural standards, especially the honoring of past generations and sharing the shame of their failures. Frankly, all cultures have some honor/guilt tradition, they just express them in different ways, each unique to their cultural context. Enough?
Are you being deliberately obstuse? Where did I say anything about Christianity being superior?
But I await your links to school curriculum, media stories, and pop culture references in Japan to the Rape of Nanking and the comfort women of Korean. Or the handwringing in Turkey over the 500 year subjugation of the Middle East and the Armenia genocide. Or the popular guilt expressed in China over the occupation of Tibet. Or the mea culpas in Saudi Arabia over the slave trade.
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Originally Posted by New Era
You do have a problem with the left, and you voice it every chance you get. Everyone can see it, and it shows in the very questionable videos and articles you post. You routinely point a finger at others for having an agenda, but the one with the agenda is clearly yourself. You claim one thing, but your research and commentary say another. How are you not seeing this?
If you're such an avid follower of my posts, you'll have noted I take a left of centre approach to almost all economic issues. I'm pro sales tax, pro public health care and education. I voted NPD provincially and Liberal federally. Almost every time someone pipes up here about taxes and the Alberta advantage and wasteful government, I'm here defending public services and criticizing the low tax rates in this province and reliance on royalties to fund government.
But the fact that when you say 'left' you evidently mean the cultural progressive left is telling in itself. When the animating force on the left went from universal economic issues to identity politics, that's when they lost their way, and played right into the hands of the far right.
I like to think I'm a fairly good communicator, but your unfailing ability to misunderstand pretty much everything I post on this forum suggests that our communications styles and perceptions of the world are so different that it's fruitless for us to carry on with these sorts of discussions anymore. But if you are at all interested in carrying on, please take a few minutes out of your life and watch the Stephen Fry speech. Then get back to me and say whether you think Fry is a liberal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 09-25-2018 at 11:01 PM.
Are you being deliberately obstuse? Where did I say anything about Christianity being superior?
You inferred as much when you ask, "Can you name any non-Christian cultures where people feel collectively guilty about things their grandparents and great-grandparents did or believed?" You're basically making a statement that all other cultures and belief systems do NOT have the capacity to harbor guilt or acknowledge the mistakes or wrongs their own forefathers had committed, that this was uniquely a Christian practice and something to be celebrated - hence being superior. I would say that you not recognizing this inference would make you obtuse in the way you present your arguments.
Quote:
If you're such an avid follower of my posts, you'll have noted I take a left of centre approach to almost all economic issues. I'm pro sales tax, pro public health care and education. I voted NPD provincially and Liberal federally. Almost every time someone pipes up here about taxes and the Alberta advantage and wasteful government, I'm here defending public services and criticizing the low tax rates in this province and reliance on royalties to fund government.
I really don't care about your economic views. These discussions rarely speak to economic issues, they focus on social and philosophical issues. You continually attack the "left" - or that which you perceive to be this leftist boogeyman you've constructed by listening to these flawed "intellectuals" - and are relentless in your pursuit to convert people to your perspective. There is a reason why this thread was changed to "the intellectual dark web" and its because the many people and theories you present are the fringe. You accept these commentaries as evidence of a massive problem sweeping the universities and colleges of the country, when the evidence just doesn't support such tropes. Yet you ignore the evidence and continue to swallow this stuff. If you identify as a liberal, you're one of the most self-loathing liberals I've ever seen and just don't ascribe to the foundations of liberalism.
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But the fact that when you say 'left' you evidently mean the cultural progressive left is telling in itself. When the animating force on the left went from universal economic issues to identity politics, that's when they lost their way, and played right into the hands of the far right.
I'm actually using YOUR terms. You are the one setting the boundaries in these discussions and people are just following your lead, picking your arguments to tiny pieces. So please stop trying to project your misguided understanding of the political sphere on others as you try to defend your position. People are arguing using your terms and your framing against you, even when the goalposts shift.
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I like to think I'm a fairly good communicator,
No, you're not. Obviously you are failing to be a good communicator because people routinely do not get the point of what you are trying to say, and then interpret you saying the counter.
I'm sure you like to consider yourself quite the intellectual, because you can quote Peterson, Harris, Pinker, Fry, and Shapiro (sounds like a really lame law firm). But you're not one of those either. Listening to podcasts and being able to post links to what OTHER people think, does not make you an intellectual. Developing a greater understanding of the subject matter, the connections between those subject matters, and being able to communicate that effectively is where you need to start.
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But if you are at all interested in carrying on, please take a few minutes out of your life and watch the Stephen Fry speech. Then get back to me and say whether you think Fry is a liberal.
Yes, I've seen this debate. I watched it and commented on the first time you posted this same debate. Stephen Fry is a liberal. But you sir, are no Stephen Fry. Fry is a great communicator and he understands the subject matter. Fry speaks to the subject with clarity and makes his point. He does so eloquently and with an exclamation point. If you actually listened to what he was saying, he was speaking to YOU.
"All of this has to stop, this rage this hostility, this resentment, intolerance, above all this wither store against us. A certainty. A grand canyon has opened up in our world, and the fissure the crack grows wider every day. Neither on each side can hear a word the other shrieks, and nor do they want to. While these armys, and propagandists in the culture wars clash, down below in the enormous space between the two sides, the people of the world try to get on with their lives alternatively baffled, bored, and betrayed by the horrible noises and explosions that echo all around. I think its time for this toxic binary zero sum madness to stop before we destroy ourselves."
You are one of those propagandists he's talking about. You are the one carrying the water for the culture warriors like Peterson (has it ever dawned on you that he would have no voice whatsoever if not for his instance on speaking to the culture war on behalf of men everywhere?). You are one keeping these issues alive. The evidence does not support your claims of universities and colleges harboring such environments. It is a figment of the imagination of these supposed intellectuals - an argument they must continue to forward themselves to remain relevant, as their work as scholars in their schools is no longer maintaining their position or feeding their egos. They speak of a very small minority of people and events, and they are statistically insignificant. Only the carryings on of your heroes in the lame law firm keep these things relevant. Because, as Fry eloquently puts it, "the people of the world try to get on with their lives alternatively baffled, bored, and betrayed by the horrible noises and explosions that echo all around." My suggestion is to find a new windmill to tilt against. This one appears done.
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The American far right is only marginally closer to me, socially and politically, than Putin's regime. Both terrible. And both cultures I regard myself as having essentially no influence over, and so don't feel any particular responsibility to call out*.
This is some astounding cognitive dissonance considering the amount of times I've seen you blast Western feminists for being more critical of patriarchal social structures in Western society than in places such as China, Saudi Arabia, etc.
And not to pile-on too much here, but this is part of the problem people have with you in these threads, Cliff. You're obviously a smart guy and bring up some interesting points but you consistently contradict yourself and present yourself as a dishonest actor with poor self-reflection skills and an inability to debate without committing a laundry list of logical fallacies.
To make matters worse, when you get called on these things or effectively refuted, you either get your back up or retreat into the shadows until the next opportunity presents itself for you to regurgitate the same argument with new packaging. You effectively undermine the values you claim to regard so highly and become the same shrill, dogmatic ideologue you supposedly loathe.
Last edited by rubecube; 09-26-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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I joined this forum over 14 years ago and have posted, on average, about 1.5 messages per day since then (almost exclusively in the OT area). I've pretty much stopped posting here completely now (my last post prior to this one was four months ago), and CliffFletcher is the primary reason why I left. Even though I have him on my ignore list, practically every political thread in the OT forum is ruined by Cliff's incessant rants about "identity politics" and "the SJW menace". Just ignoring him isn't good enough because once he decides to grace a thread with his presence, the entire conversation becomes dominated by his posts and people responding to him.
I still check in and lurk here every now and then to see if anything has changed and the quality of discourse has improved, but recent posts in this thread confirm that my decision to stop participating on the CP forums was the right one.
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Obviously once you put things in categories people will find problems with the grouping, but still kind of a useful map of the different ideologies, people, and labels being used in this discussion.
Story similar to the Lindsay Shepherd situation from last year:
Profs Tell BC Student Discussing Abortion In Class Is “Hateful” And “Unsafe”
Quote:
Discussing abortion is “hateful” and threatens classroom “safety,” according to comments contained in leaked audio of a meeting between a former University of the Fraser Valley graduate student and two of her professors.
Valerie Flokstra, a recent graduate of UFV’s teacher education program, was summoned into a meeting with a professor and her department’s head in December after citing a medical statistic related to abortion during a classroom discussion.
Students were told premature births were contributing to increased autism diagnoses. Flokstra questioned whether high abortion rates in Canada could be playing a role, citing studies showing a link between abortion and later premature births.
Asking that made the classroom an unsafe space, the 22-year old was told.
Listened to the audio, seems like the Truth North Iniative lackey is trying to turn a molehill into a mountain.
I’d be curious to hear both sides of that story, though, rather than the ultra conservative spin by itself. The audio doesn’t seem to tell the same story as the blog.
Why is it an "ultra conservative spin"? What was spun?
True North is pretty firmly slanted to one side, so it stands to reason one should look at situations like this with a critical eye.
Specifically, lines like:
“Britton said (critical thinking) is not a priority for the program”
“At a particularly tense moment in the meeting, Britton likens discussing abortion to allowing a hate group on campus.”
“Flokstra’s professors attempt to couch offensive recommendations with an “I’m on your side” attitude”
“Flokstra was told discussing abortion is like a UFV KKK club.”
“Flokstra cried as she recounted being told by Sivia to “put my Christian identity aside and put my teacher identity on top of that.”
Though this specific allegation cannot be independently verified”
This is a lot of subjective spin, a lot of it isn’t even said, it’s a blogger’s slant.
Not a big deal, but just hard to get a decent perspective of what actually went on, especially because the audio is incomplete and the 8 minutes out of 60 that was posted isn’t nearly as bad as the article presents it as.
