A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[getbak]

Wow, that video's quite impressive.

[Ashartus]

The thing that got me wondering about Tyrion was the bit about him saying how bad he felt about the kids and how guilty, just before asking Cersei if she's pregnant. I'm wondering if she's using that (whether real or not) to get Tyrion to betray Daenerys somehow.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by DropIt

Except that's a narrative that GOT has done a good job avoiding. GRRM has done a good job of storytelling from different perspectives. The idea is there are no good or bad, just houses looking out for their best interests

This is one of the end game problems he is going to face though. The white walkers are a pure evil with nothing having been done to humanize them. So any battle with them is good vs Evil.

It's also what makes Cersai as she is still looking out for her own best interests.

I think the key to next season will be how the houses stay loyal or quit during the hopeless conflict in the north. And there are 2 fantastic potential endings that would make people angry.

Jon and Dany defeat the white walkers but weaken themselves and Cersai defeats them or just as Jon and Dany are about to defeat the walkers Cersai, realizing the their army is still stronger attacks them from behind allowing the white walkers to defeat the North. Then the White walkers destroy the world.

Both would fit the the game of thrones themes of your strongest traits being your downfall and those who are heroic or noble will die as a result of it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is one of the end game problems he is going to face though. The white walkers are a pure evil with nothing having been done to humanize them. So any battle with them is good vs Evil.

It's also what makes Cersai as she is still looking out for her own best interests.

I think the key to next season will be how the houses stay loyal or quit during the hopeless conflict in the north. And there are 2 fantastic potential endings that would make people angry.

Jon and Dany defeat the white walkers but weaken themselves and Cersai defeats them or just as Jon and Dany are about to defeat the walkers Cersai, realizing the their army is still stronger attacks them from behind allowing the white walkers to defeat the North. Then the White walkers destroy the world.

Both would fit the the game of thrones themes of your strongest traits being your downfall and those who are heroic or noble will die as a result of it.

We actually don't know the NK's motivations yet. Could be more to it than pure evil.

[burn_this_city]

Maybe he's just trying to get his people south where the ground isnt frozen and they can have a proper burial.

[Senator Clay Davis]

We still don't even know who the Night King really is, so motivation is tough to figure out. As of now all we know is Bran saw it and it was some guy who got stabbed with dragon glass by Leaf. Hopefully we find out more although only six more episodes left so they'd better get on that quick. With the wall down they should be in Winterfell pretty fast.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

We actually don't know the NK's motivations yet. Could be more to it than pure evil.

If they wanted to give him motivation they should have used the time with the three eyed raven and the children of the forest to do it. If the human that was turned into the night king turns out to be a Lord of a House or just wants to conquer winterfel because he used to be a Stark these seeds should have been planted earlier. Chekovs gun needs to be introduced in act 1.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Well then fill me in, oh enlightened one. What was the logic or goal that can explain all of the different choices she made?

Was she trying to divide Jon and Dany, as it would seem from the pre-storm out negotiations? If so, why come back and not only accept a truce but pledge Lannister soldiers?

Was she trying to divert Jon and Dany's attention to the North, giving her time to consolidate her hold on the South? If so, then why end negotiations and storm out, with no intention of returning, just because Jon won't stay neutral? And why pledge Lannister soldiers for the fight against the Night King, with no intention to follow through, instead of just accepting a truce? When the soldiers never start to march North, Jon and Dany would know immediately that Cersei was lying!

Sorry, didn't mean that to come across as condescending. Just meant that I seem to have encountered my fair share of Cerseis and petty political environments in life, and her behaviour seemed credible to me.

Her motives are creating division between her enemies, creating confusion and misinformation, and buying herself time to strengthen her own resources. She never had any intention of doing anything but screwing them over, and everything she said was just plays to gain her needed resources.

The play with Jon was smart. Either he stands divided from Dany because he agrees not to take her side, or she walks and he is responsible for the failure of their peace bid. With Euron on his way to get the Golden Company, she needs time, so a commitment of her troops would have been no big deal anyways. She could just delay, or recall them part way. Either way, she has bought herself time for her armies to arrive and has thrown a wrench in the plans of her enemies. Tyrion going to talk with her just gave her another opportunity to further manipulate her opposition and gain the time and misinformation that plays to her advantage. Judging by Tyrion's expression in the scene at the end of the episode, she may well have succeeded in sowing some further divisions or doubts as a result of the weakness they showed in coming to negotiate further with her.

That's my read anyways. She's nasty, but very effective.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by DropIt

Except that's a narrative that GOT has done a good job avoiding. GRRM has done a good job of storytelling from different perspectives. The idea is there are no good or bad, just houses looking out for their best interests

I think you mean the show runners have done a good job of this. Who was good and who was evil when Dany turned the dragon loose on the Lanister convoy? What did GRRM have to do with this?
Pretty hard to say there is any good left in Cersei, or maybe if there ever was. Not a lot of good ever in Ramsey Bolton. Not sure much good in the white walkers. But if the story is good, there will be characters that make us flip flop on our hatred or admiration of them, like Jamie.
Good vs evil has always been coming, like winter, unless you think GRRM was never going to have the white walker battle?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is one of the end game problems he is going to face though. The white walkers are a pure evil with nothing having been done to humanize them. So any battle with them is good vs Evil.

It's also what makes Cersai as she is still looking out for her own best interests.

I think the key to next season will be how the houses stay loyal or quit during the hopeless conflict in the north. And there are 2 fantastic potential endings that would make people angry.

Jon and Dany defeat the white walkers but weaken themselves and Cersai defeats them or just as Jon and Dany are about to defeat the walkers Cersai, realizing the their army is still stronger attacks them from behind allowing the white walkers to defeat the North. Then the White walkers destroy the world.

Both would fit the the game of thrones themes of your strongest traits being your downfall and those who are heroic or noble will die as a result of it.

I don't see it as good vs. evil at all. I think the white walkers are much better characterised by Beric Dondarion: death.

All of the human passions, including love, lust, betrayal, ambition are made to look trivial when set against the great war/the long night, ie. death. Death isn't evil, just emotionless. The bittersweet ending could be that the even if death is defeated and staved off, the alternative isn't peace, but a return to the constant, opportunistic and nasty battle between each other that is the other half of our nature.

[EldrickOnIce]

^ If war against annihilation of a people isn't a battle of good vs evil, then I am not sure what it is?
Of course there is no happy ever after coming. I don't think anyone is naive enough to suggest harmony for the seven kingdoms is the end game.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

If they wanted to give him motivation they should have used the time with the three eyed raven and the children of the forest to do it. If the human that was turned into the night king turns out to be a Lord of a House or just wants to conquer winterfel because he used to be a Stark these seeds should have been planted earlier. Chekovs gun needs to be introduced in act 1.

It makes more sense to leave it to the end. It's the biggest reveal in the show. It would also take away from the sense of drama of the NK had been humanised.

[Sr. Mints]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Maybe he's just trying to get his people south where the ground isnt frozen and they can have a proper burial.

Global warming does not exist. These things go in a cycle. What do you think Game of Thrones is, fantasy?!

[pseudoreality]

The whitewalkers were created by the Children of the Forest to destroy mankind as the children were losing a war to the first men at the time. I still think that is their mission.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It would make no sense to provide some big motivational reveal for the white walkers. We know everything we need to. They are former men, they were corrupted by the children of the forest by shoving a magical obsidian blade into a man's heart in an effort to protect against the invasion of men who were bringing death and destruction, as men often do.

White Walkers are simply the personification of the evil that men do. Their association with cold and death and winter are one of the few things about GoT that Martin intentionally designed to be stereotypical fantasy. They are basically a MacGuffin.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

The whitewalkers were created by the Children of the Forest to destroy mankind as the children were losing a war to the first men at the time. I still think that is their mission.

I disagree. It seems like the NK has his own motivations. He acts extremely strategically and intelligently to be just blindly following some command from the Children of the Forest.

[Azure]

So am I understanding this correctly? Ned Stark knew that Roberts Rebellion was based on a lie?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Azure

So am I understanding this correctly? Ned Stark knew that Roberts Rebellion was based on a lie?

Yes, but not until it was over and Robert was sitting on the Iron Throne.

[Azure]

Ah. So the tower scene was after it was over I assume. Hard to get all the timelines right.

[rubecube]

Didn't Ned wait until after the Mad King burned his brother and father alive before he took up arms?