Coronavirus All Purpose Thread: moving on?

[GGG]

It’s interesting that Denmark has no increase so is this the omicron variant variant driving these?

And the other thing to note is that hospitalizations is what will matter not cases. Denmarks made it through wide open so I’m not overly concerned with this one. We will also me almost into spring so that should put negative pressure on the virus to some degree.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by blankall

Medical doctors, unless they are also involved in research, are not qualified to interpret research. That's not what they do. Someone with a PhD would be much better off interpreting research, than the average medical doctor, who is a practitioner, not a researcher.

John Campbell has a PhD in nurse education. Part of his job is to interpret research and then teach it to nurses. He would also be involved in creating scientific literature, so would have far more experience interpreting research than a medical doctor. You would not trust a practitioner with interpreting scientific data or coming up with policy. That's not what they do. Practitioners are limited to applying approved medical treatments.

You think doctors have no input into medical treatments and policies & nurse educators are the ones deciding the treatments and policies? . Individual educators or doctors aren't deciding any of that, just like law professors aren't deciding the laws.

I wasn't suggesting that every doctor could do a better job, that isn't true. Many people assume he's a medical doctor. He's not interpreting studies, side effects and treatments on his own and just teaching that to nurses. If he is, he should stop because he's very bad at it.

He's been wrong numerous times when it comes to ivermectin, over counting covid deaths and vaccine safety, (multiple times for each). He either doesn't understand it or he's being intentional.

He says in the first video that he doesn't really understand the document yet still pushes out this headline to a massive audience, it's irresponsible.

It's VERY VERY clear he's letting his bias control his interpretation. Even in that video where he admits he got it wrong, he's still kind of a implying that he's not really wrong. He's wrong, and he's drifted into conspiracy land.

Your statement on doctors not being able to properly understand the document is a good one that applies to many other fields as well, like nurse educator.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GGG

It’s interesting that Denmark has no increase so is this the omicron variant variant driving these?

And the other thing to note is that hospitalizations is what will matter not cases. Denmarks made it through wide open so I’m not overly concerned with this one. We will also me almost into spring so that should put negative pressure on the virus to some degree.

Denmark's numbers might be related to scaling back testing. They're only doing about 1/4 the tests per day compared to the November - February period, and the positivity rate is now up to 32%. And their hospital numbers still haven't dropped much from their peak in late February (ICU numbers are exceedingly low though).

The rise in Europe probably isn't all that surprising. A place like the UK was saved largely due to its fast booster rollout; but now a few months later, those boosters are starting to be less effective at preventing infection so you'd expect to see those people who were boosted in Dec/Jan start to get infected at a higher rate.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

You think doctors have no input into medical treatments and policies & nurse educators are the ones deciding the treatments and policies? . Individual educators or doctors aren't deciding any of that, just like law professors aren't deciding the laws.

I wasn't suggesting that every doctor could do a better job, that isn't true. Many people assume he's a medical doctor. He's not interpreting studies, side effects and treatments on his own and just teaching that to nurses. If he is, he should stop because he's very bad at it.

He's been wrong numerous times when it comes to ivermectin, over counting covid deaths and vaccine safety, (multiple times for each). He either doesn't understand it or he's being intentional.

He says in the first video that he doesn't really understand the document yet still pushes out this headline to a massive audience, it's irresponsible.

It's VERY VERY clear he's letting his bias control his interpretation. Even in that video where he admits he got it wrong, he's still kind of a implying that he's not really wrong. He's wrong, and he's drifted into conspiracy land.

Your statement on doctors not being able to properly understand the document is a good one that applies to many other fields as well, like nurse educator.

You stated that because he was not a medical doctor that he was not an authority to interpret scientific medical data, which is incorrect.

The whole invermectin issue is also far from settled. The US NHS just reversed their opinion on Invermectin, going from stating that it wasn't a good treatment, to not have enough data either way:

There is insufficient evidence for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelin...py/ivermectin/

There are multiple studies going both ways on Invermectin, and the jury is still out on it. The fact that a possible treatment may not have been used because people were shouting it down as bad science for political reasons is pretty absurd.

The UK is still studying it's effectiveness:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57570377

Ironically enough, its actually been almost entirely medical doctors who have been jumping the gun and handing out Invermectin without proper research:

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n747

[photon]

It says that page hasn't been updated since Feb 2021, where did they say they reversed their opinion?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by photon

It says that page hasn't been updated since Feb 2021, where did they say they reversed their opinion?

They had previously stated that Invermectin was not an effective treatment. Around January 2021, they changed their opinion to state more research needed to be done. They began their own investigation in June of 2021.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You all really tempting fate aren't you?

Hey man....in these days of fluctuating oil prices, random invasions, Lizard-men apocalypse scenarios, the price of food and fuel and a new 'Queen of the Kingdom of Canada' whats one more nutcase in the mix?

Bring it on.

If there is one thing COVID has conclusively proven its that we can take it!

"Whats that? Oh! Another world-ending tragic sequence of events? Sorry Son...get in line."

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

They had previously stated that Invermectin was not an effective treatment. Around January 2021, they changed their opinion to state more research needed to be done. They began their own investigation in June of 2021.

That was over a year ago. What do you mean they “just” reversed their opinion?

I also think framing invermectin as not being used because it was “shouted down” as bad science for political reasons is the kind of pathetic double speak that we’ve had way too much of for the last couple years. What you mean to say is that it was “shouted down” as bad science because the science behind it’s use was bad. Nobody was against it being studied, people were against those pushing it’s use without good evidence.

That’s why we do studies and research things. It’s good science.

I know I’m wasting my time, but to frame the push against the unapproved and unstudied use of invermectin as the thing that was absurd and political was too funny to leave alone. Fascinated by how your mind works.

[photon]

Originally Posted by blankall

They had previously stated that Invermectin was not an effective treatment. Around January 2021, they changed their opinion to state more research needed to be done. They began their own investigation in June of 2021.

Sorry I should have been clear you said "just reversed" which I took as meaning there was a recent change.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody was against it being studied, people were against those pushing it’s use without good evidence.

Exactly, study it, but don't pretend it's effective without actual high quality evidence.

Ivermectin is mirroring HCQ almost exactly in terms of rhetoric and discussion. You can take an online thread about HCQ and search/replace ivermectin and it'll sound exactly like recent discussions.

About the only difference is the dumb assertions that the recent drugs by Pfizer or Merck are just relabeled ivermectin.. like the molecules of these things aren't very well documented or something.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by photon

Sorry I should have been clear you said "just reversed" which I took as meaning there was a recent change.

EDIT:



Exactly, study it, but don't pretend it's effective without actual high quality evidence.

Ivermectin is mirroring HCQ almost exactly in terms of rhetoric and discussion. You can take an online thread about HCQ and search/replace ivermectin and it'll sound exactly like recent discussions.

About the only difference is the dumb assertions that the recent drugs by Pfizer or Merck are just relabeled ivermectin.. like the molecules of these things aren't very well documented or something.

Yeah, a whole lot around the invermectin/HCQ convos just fails on a basic logic test. “They’re suppressing these great treatments because of politics!!” No reasonable explanation behind why they would actually do that, of course, beyond the murky dark force of “politics.”

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by blankall

You stated that because he was not a medical doctor that he was not an authority to interpret scientific medical data, which is incorrect.

The whole invermectin issue is also far from settled. The US NHS just reversed their opinion on Invermectin, going from stating that it wasn't a good treatment, to not have enough data either way:



https://www.covid19treatmentguidelin...py/ivermectin/

There are multiple studies going both ways on Invermectin, and the jury is still out on it. The fact that a possible treatment may not have been used because people were shouting it down as bad science for political reasons is pretty absurd.

The UK is still studying it's effectiveness:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57570377

Ironically enough, its actually been almost entirely medical doctors who have been jumping the gun and handing out Invermectin without proper research:

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n747

There are current studies yes, the UK and Japan both have studies underway. So far, small studies show a minor effect and any large rct shows no effect. The fact that anyone would suggest it's being shouted down for political reasons is embarrassing. It's being shouted down because nothing supports its use. Officials pulled Astra Zeneca pretty quickly, they also stopped giving Moderna to people under 30, why in the world would they hide this?

It's not far from settled. Maybe these last couple studies will show something, that would be great news.

I stated he's not a medical doctor because I literally had a conversation with someone suggesting he was a medical doctor earlier that day. He's not and he's really bad at interpreting data from these studies. It's obvious that isn't a significant part of his job. You don't need to be a doctor or PhD to understand these studies, but regardless of his career or education if he's repeatedly incorrectly interpreting the data he needs to take a step back.

For the record I'd love to see ivermectin work and I was hopeful when countries in South America started to try it in 2020.

[Fuzz]

On the good news front, global daily deaths have dropped below October 2020 levels for the first time to ~5500. Pretty good, considering the US alone had ~2600 deaths 1.5 months ago.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That was over a year ago. What do you mean they “just” reversed their opinion?

I also think framing invermectin as not being used because it was “shouted down” as bad science for political reasons is the kind of pathetic double speak that we’ve had way too much of for the last couple years. What you mean to say is that it was “shouted down” as bad science because the science behind it’s use was bad. Nobody was against it being studied, people were against those pushing it’s use without good evidence.

That’s why we do studies and research things. It’s good science.

I know I’m wasting my time, but to frame the push against the unapproved and unstudied use of invermectin as the thing that was absurd and political was too funny to leave alone. Fascinated by how your mind works.

Out of thanks, so thanks for this.

[Nancy]

Originally Posted by GGG

It’s interesting that Denmark has no increase so is this the omicron variant variant driving these?

And the other thing to note is that hospitalizations is what will matter not cases. Denmarks made it through wide open so I’m not overly concerned with this one. We will also me almost into spring so that should put negative pressure on the virus to some degree.

Where do you get this from?

In the past 5 weeks, Denmark had all time records for deaths, hospitalizations and cases, with the death record happening just a week ago. Sure, crested and on the way down, but far from a narrative of "no increase."

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Nancy

Where do you get this from?

In the past 5 weeks, Denmark had all time records for deaths, hospitalizations and cases, with the death record happening just a week ago. Sure, crested and on the way down, but far from a narrative of "no increase."

Yeah, that was what I was getting at. No increase was referring to the time of the post relative to Europe. Denmark was not increasing with the rest of Europe on Mar 13th. Hence the conclusion is this increase is driven by the Omicron variant variant. Denmark made it through the DA2 without further restrictions as you note with the peak of Feb 28th

My conclusion of I’m not overly concerned is based on Denmark surviving DA2 wide open and this not likely being related to a change in transmissibility or virulence.

My concern of Covid is essentially limited to will this overwhelm hospitals requiring surgeries to be canceled and restrictions to be implemented.

[CliffFletcher]

Remember when Canada’s handling of covid was being compared unfavourably with that of Asian countries with a zero covid policy? About that…

Hong Kong Covid crisis: why is the death rate so high?

Low vaccination rates among the elderly, low rates of prior infection and an overwhelmed healthcare system have contributed to create the perfect storm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...h-rate-so-high

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Remember when Canada’s handling of covid was being compared unfavourably with that of Asian countries with a zero covid policy? About that…

Gee, it’s almost like vaccinations, mask mandates, mild/moderate restrictions, etc all helped. Who would have thought.
(Note: not a response to Cliff, more to the anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-mandate, anti-science among us)

[Fuzz]

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...y/south-korea/


South Korea is interesting. Never had more than about 2000 new cases. Today? ~620 000. Aprox 85% vaccinated, 62% boosted.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...y/south-korea/


South Korea is interesting. Never had more than about 2000 new cases. Today? ~620 000. Aprox 85% vaccinated, 62% boosted.

They just haven't been quick enough with the 4th dose.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...y/south-korea/


South Korea is interesting. Never had more than about 2000 new cases. Today? ~620 000. Aprox 85% vaccinated, 62% boosted.

I dunno, isn't this what we wanted? Play it safe until everyone can be fully vaccinated (in this case boosted) and then open things up and avoid the worst effects of Covid on the public health system? During the December Omicron wave, Canada was approximately 1000 cases per million people daily, and South Korea was about 150 cases per million people. It looks pretty bad now but they haven't a big wave until now either. Theoretically there won't be as many hospitalizations and deaths by following this route.