A non believer would most likely want a crashed or intact UFO as proof. Same goes for Aliens, dead or alive. They wouldn't be wrong in asking for that.
I would like to see the science community and the govt and NASA work together to find a common answer to what these UAP's are that pilots are reporting. Chances are probably good that they are. Until then I'm going to wait and reserve my judgements until then.
Most people in the science community think it's a pile of crap and a waste of time and money investigating it, a few grainy infrared videos and a couple of guys with nothing more than hearsay isn't going to change that.
Ask yourself the question of why these pilots don't get better photo's or video of these objects, there are literally 1000's of pic's/videos and selfies from fighter pilots all over the net, one would think they would have their phone ready for a ufo.
This guy took a selfie of the Chinese Balloon.
What this boils down to is people are gullible and people make a lot of money from the gullible, Just watch, Mr. Grusch will now have speaking engagements,pod cast appearances and a future book deal, and again there won't be one ounce of real evidence to support his claims. Just another con job.
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Until such things can be proven or disproven, all each of us brings to the table is our perspective. From skeptic through to believer. No matter how hard you believe in your position, you can't prove yours to be the truth, nor do you have enough information to disprove another's. Which is why I think we need to approach the topic respectfully.
The thing is people who are open minded about this are saying "let's see, I want to know", whereas there is a peanut gallery here that is saying "that's absurd, and entertaining that is absurd"
One is harmless, while the other is bordering on brash at times. At least, when it's repeated over and over to dissuade others from debating it further.
But that debate is good. Open discussion is good. Dissecting ideas is good.
Mocking topics or a debate as a whole is just poor form on a forum, where things are meant to be discussed.
Taking the cynical view is fine if you're up to fighting for your position making arguments. Circling back to "that's absurd because it just is" is some lazy debating. If it's so blatantly obvious that the idea of non-human activity going on is just fantasy, then winning that debate should be easy. But these posters resort to spitting on the game board, rather than playing. And that's what kills the productive discussion that's actually fun to read.
And at the end of the day, both sides are merely theorizing here. And believing 'harder' in your position unfortunately still isn't giving you the upper hand in terms of how the information stacks up for/against. And the only real, hard truth is just that.
Participate in the debate. If the believers need to be held in check in your view, then play the game and debate them. It's a perfect opportunity for that. But show some good sportsmanship and respect in doing it.
The air of judgment from some in that peanut gallery segment, while they themselves can't prove anything but only hypothesize and theorize all the same, is totally unnecessary though.
It would be nice to just scrutinize the information presented rather than make this a my beliefs vs your beliefs thing.
I just want to read more about what's trickling in on the topic, and debate/critique that without wading through "you're dumb and this is dumb" posts.
Pretty tough to continuously try to play thread police when the majority of your posts are mocking/criticizing people who disagree with you or who you view as skeptics/realists/peanut gallery. Also a bit tough when you’re singling out one side of the argument while Lanny sits on the other side acting like a total twat 95% of the time lol.
I think the solution is to get over it. Because if there’s one thing that’s worse to read than debate, it’s this kind of thing. Especially when this exact situation is what led you to “quitting” the forum last time. If you don’t like that a thread on a forum is filled with debate and that not everyone believes in aliens and doesn’t have time to present you with arguments you think are worthwhile, too bad.
I like the debate. I like “the peanut gallery.” If people want to say they have an “open mind” and pretend that all opinions are equally valid, then you have to have a thicker skin than this.
The reality is that being a “believer” is absolutely more absurd than being a skeptic. There’s nothing to support it. There are UAPs and reports of what some people “saw” but that doesn’t tell us any more than there are things that are not yet explained. So, there is nothing to “believe.” Right? What exactly would you be believing? We all agree there are unexplained things. Cool. You want to believe it’s something to which there’s zero evidence for? Alright, we’ll toughen up and stop being a paper tiger, because someone might push you on it, and you’re going to have to do better than fold, mock those people, and then tell everyone to be nicer to you.
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That gimble dissection video really shows how much perspective, and the properties of observer movement play into creating things that are not there. Which is what I've said for along time, I think most of these can be explained by shifting perspective and camera movement. Do I need to have every encounter dissected to assume this is the case? No, because it is a very plausible explanation, and unless someone can show convincingly that any of these are not the result of perspective effects, why spend time thinking they are aliens?
This video has already been debunked back in this thread. Not only is it incorrect in the assumptions of how the gimbal cameras work it also ignores that there were multiple eye witnesses to the craft (two F-18 crews on intercept) and the plethora of electronic and radar sensor data from multiple ships.
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Originally Posted by jammies
No one has brought them up to be dismissed, either. You're being disingenuous, the argument has largely been between those who believe the American government is hiding evidence of alien visitors (like you) vs those who don't.
So bring the ideas and explanations up for discussion. The argument has gone the way it has because people propose ideas/explanations and they are discussed based on the posted information. We aren't going to discuss things that aren't posted.
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I'm certainly open to arguing in favour of time travelers though, as it neatly explains why the conspiracy has never been exposed - they just go back and change history every time someone talks. The Morlocks are among us - they want to steal our precious bodily fluids and kidnap our fertile women to repopulate the end of time!
This might be why the idea hasn't been put forward. Who wants to put an idea out there that is just going to be mocked at first blush?
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
Most people in the science community think it's a pile of crap and a waste of time and money investigating it, a few grainy infrared videos and a couple of guys with nothing more than hearsay isn't going to change that.
This isn't true. At all. The science community would like more involvement and ability to do proper analysis. They would like to know exactly what is going on, just like everyone else. The community remains highly skeptical just like they are on field of study, but nothing would make the community as a whole more excited than the discovery proof of life elsewhere in the universe. SETI continues to listen for deep space signals and we continue to scan the heaven, including a $10B roll of the dice to put JWST in orbit, in hopes of finding answers to the question of are we alone.
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Ask yourself the question of why these pilots don't get better photo's or video of these objects, there are literally 1000's of pic's/videos and selfies from fighter pilots all over the net, one would think they would have their phone ready for a ufo.
Security concerns might be a start? Because they are discouraged from releasing such information? How many times do you need these pilots to say their careers are threatened and then they are ridiculed when they do talk about it. They are also in an active engagement and may not have chance to pull out their phone and take "selfies" when they're working as an actual team to engage a possible hostile. Why don't we see more "selfies" of engagements between our pilots and foreign fighters? Why don't we see selfies of the first engagements between the F22 and the J-20 or Mig-57? I mean, the pilots must certainly wanted to get up close pictures of those events for the Facebook or Instagram account, right?
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What this boils down to is people are gullible and people make a lot of money from the gullible, Just watch, Mr. Grusch will now have speaking engagements,pod cast appearances and a future book deal, and again there won't be one ounce of real evidence to support his claims. Just another con job.
Except that Grush made his testimony before congress and was very clear he would share details but only in a manner than complied with his whistleblower protections. He is not able to speak to such things in the open without possibly going to prison. So unless congress can get access to the information - which they are being denied by the military - nothing will come of this.
I do think your claim here is ridiculous. Whistleblowers don't come forth to make money. Money is never a thought when coming forward as a whistleblower, you're more concerned about the potential damage it will do to your career and life in general. You do these things because you strongly believe there is a wrong to be righted.
This appearance by Grush and company should make you very happy. This is an opportunity to throw back the shroud of secrecy and get to the bottom of this long-standing issue. We could finally find out one way or another. The problem is lack of transparency. The military continues to rebuff congress from even entering bases let alone secure facilities or information stores. That is troubling. That should be telling you they have something to hide and is consistent with Grush's testimony. You and others have said in the past that if they are sitting on something get it out in the open and let's see it. Let's hope this generates that moment and GGG get's his peer review he's hoping for.
There is already something positive coming from the testimony given in front of congress. According to Graves there has been a dramatic increase in people reaching out to his organization from pilots wanting to share their experiences.
So this is not as isolated as some would make it out to be. Maybe this will lift the stigma that is associated with such events and allow people to speak more openly about their experiences.
One last point to make, this is not a United States issue. This is a global issue and has been going on all over the world. It's convenient to suggest it is only a issue in the United States but we have an open society where we are able to discuss such events. Other countries aren't that way. Other countries don't also mock those who come forward the way we do here. Other countries have studied UFOs/UAPs for decades as well.
From Conclusions and Recommendations of the extensive report.
"The UFO problem cannot be eliminated by mere caustic and offhand witticisms. Since the publication of the first report by the Association des Anciens Auditeurs of IHEDN 20 years ago. CNES has conducted serious studies in close collaboration with the Gendarmerie National and the Air Force primarily, as well as with other State agencies (Civil Aviation, Weather Service, etc.). These studies tally with other research conducted more or less discretely abroad, mainly in the United States.
They demonstrate the almost certain physical reality of completely unknown flying objects with remarkable flight performances and noiselessness, apparently operated by intelligent [beings]. With their maneuvers, these flying objects considerably impress civilian and military pilots, who hesitate to speak [about them]. The fear of appearing ridiculous, alienated, or simply gullible is the principal reason for this reserve. Secret craft definitely of earthly origin (drones, stealth aircraft, etc.) can only explain a minority of cases. If we go back far enough in time, we clearly perceive the limits of this explanation.
Thus we are forced to resort to other hypotheses. Some can neither be confirmed nor invalidated. They are therefore not scientific, and, certainly, it is very difficult to scientifically study rare, elusive, and chance phenomena, when science is based above all on experiments and their reproducibility. However, the example of meteorites shows that this type of phenomenon can nevertheless end up being accepted by the scientific community after centuries of doubt and rejection.
A single hypothesis sufficiently takes into account the facts and, for the most part, only calls for present-day science. It is the hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitors. Advanced as of 1947 by certain U.S. military personnel, today it is popular worldwide. It is discredited by a certain elite, but is plausible. Scientists (astronomers, physicists, engineers, futurologists, etc.) have elaborated on it enough for it to be receivable - as a hypothesis - by their peers.
Different plausible variants concerning the voyage of one or more civilizations from a remote solar system to ours have been developed. A model of magneto-hydrodynamic technology, which could be employed to propel the UFOs in the atmosphere, has been well developed. Other manifestations of these objects have begun to receive a physical explanation (automobile breakdowns, truncated beams [of light], etc.).
The purposes of these possible visitors remain unknown, but they must be the subject of indispensable speculations and the development of prospective scenarios. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is far from the best scientific hypothesis. It certainly has not been categorically proven, but strong presumptions exist in its favor and if it is correct, it is loaded with consequences."
The report also references significant studies done in the UK and Russia/Soviet Union.
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Pretty tough to continuously try to play thread police when the majority of your posts are mocking/criticizing people who disagree with you or who you view as skeptics/realists/peanut gallery. Also a bit tough when you’re singling out one side of the argument while Lanny sits on the other side acting like a total twat 95% of the time lol.
I think the solution is to get over it. Because if there’s one thing that’s worse to read than debate, it’s this kind of thing. Especially when this exact situation is what led you to “quitting” the forum last time. If you don’t like that a thread on a forum is filled with debate and that not everyone believes in aliens and doesn’t have time to present you with arguments you think are worthwhile, too bad.
I like the debate. I like “the peanut gallery.” If people want to say they have an “open mind” and pretend that all opinions are equally valid, then you have to have a thicker skin than this.
The reality is that being a “believer” is absolutely more absurd than being a skeptic. There’s nothing to support it. There are UAPs and reports of what some people “saw” but that doesn’t tell us any more than there are things that are not yet explained. So, there is nothing to “believe.” Right? What exactly would you be believing? We all agree there are unexplained things. Cool. You want to believe it’s something to which there’s zero evidence for? Alright, we’ll toughen up and stop being a paper tiger, because someone might push you on it, and you’re going to have to do better than fold, mock those people, and then tell everyone to be nicer to you.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Anyone interest in doing a thread for pragmatists around this topic? I feel like this conversation just gets bogged down with judgment. The fun continually gets sucked out of a thread like a vaccum because people end up having to defend their pragmatism on the topic and skeptics continue to call out pragmatists.
Happy to take it to a new thread, private DM's, or another platform. Just message me if you're interested and I can get something going if there's enough interest.
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I'm open to the idea of ET visitors, but have seen no evidence of it. I do find the supposed witnesses - guys like Bob Lazar - as they definitely speak with a lot conviction. If they are lying, they could teach a master class on lying.
Do you have solid proof for the 5% of UFO cases that have never been explained?
You said the conversation would be over if there was proof, the flat earth movement reveals the grim reality that no, in fact, the conversation is never over so long as people choose to "believe" in a reality contrary to those objective truths. I'm not here to argue or prove anything to the negative or the affirmative, just pointing out that stating "if that were really true then the conversation would be over" is a disingenuous and meaningless argument, and does nothing to support your views
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It doesn't matter what experienced and qualified military personnel like Fravor, Graves, Grusch and others saw firsthand and put their careers and reputations on the line for (and directly to Congress, too, which is less credible than a soap box on a street corner). We know better than they do (we were all there personally) and are able to 100% explain their experiences - it's all secret human tech, illusions from psychedelics, swamp gas, or at most, human time travelers. And if you think otherwise, you're a ####ing nutbar. Everything is explainable because we know everything, everywhere, all the time.
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Originally Posted by jammies
Why can't these objects be time travelers?
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Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
This might be why the idea hasn't been put forward. Who wants to put an idea out there that is just going to be mocked at first blush?
You're making my point - the theory that some UFOs are time travelers is only less ridiculous than the theory that some are aliens because the latter has been normalized. There are literally no arguments on the "aliens!" side that could not be equally true of time travelers, yet no one is arguing for the latter.
Why is that? Could it possibly be because the "open minds" aren't quite as open as they claim to be and have already come to a conclusion unsupported by any evidence except their personal biases, and are uninterested in competing theories that dilute the surety of their convictions?
PS: Who is this TrentCrimm fellow and why is he so hurt that people on the internet don't adhere to his concept of social discourse? Sometimes, Trent, people you disagree with will post their opinions, and so long as they aren't breaking community rules, you'll just have to live with it.
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Originally Posted by Muta
Everything is explainable because we know everything, everywhere, all the time.
That's not what I, nor others, are saying at all. The core arguments are these: unexplained ≠ aliens; unexplained ≠ not being ultimately explicable without resorting to extraordinary causes.
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You said the conversation would be over if there was proof, the flat earth movement reveals the grim reality that no, in fact, the conversation is never over so long as people choose to "believe" in a reality contrary to those objective truths. I'm not here to argue or prove anything to the negative or the affirmative, just pointing out that stating "if that were really true then the conversation would be over" is a disingenuous and meaningless argument, and does nothing to support your views
To be fair, the conversation over aliens should never be truly over, as it's not like flat earth. You can't conclusively prove that aliens have never visited or would never visit earth. With flat Earth you can provide a plethora to evidence to conclusively prove the Earth is not flat. With aliens, there's no way to do the same.
Anyone interest in doing a thread for pragmatists around this topic? I feel like this conversation just gets bogged down with judgment. The fun continually gets sucked out of a thread like a vaccum because people end up having to defend their pragmatism on the topic and skeptics continue to call out pragmatists.
Happy to take it to a new thread, private DM's, or another platform. Just message me if you're interested and I can get something going if there's enough interest.
This is really great idea. But, with a new thread, I feel some posters will not be able to resist the urge to come into it and #### on the topic and #### on others for those who want to discuss from a pragmatic viewpoint. The easiest solution would be to just not venture into a thread, but like clockwork, some won't resist the temptation to try and nullify others' positions and viewpoints if they don't align with their own.
That's not what I, nor others, are saying at all. The core arguments are these: unexplained ≠ aliens; unexplained ≠ not being ultimately explicable without resorting to extraordinary causes.
Unexplained phenomenon could be non-terrestrial (or not); none of us know - that's the whole point. There are those who have seen non-explainable things by our own species' understanding, hence the recent Congressional hearings. My post your responding to was tongue-in-cheek, but I thought that was obvious.
I do think your claim here is ridiculous. Whistleblowers don't come forth to make money. Money is never a thought when coming forward as a whistleblower, you're more concerned about the potential damage it will do to your career and life in general. You do these things because you strongly believe there is a wrong to be righted.
That's part of the issue. Reporting something they can't explain shouldn't put their careers at risk. However, if someone is supposed to be an expert in their field and report something that they end up being wrong about, it could derail their career. You would never want to be the guy who is supposed to know more about aeronautical engineering than most people, and then be majorly wrong about something like this. Even if David Fravor is wrong, he can never admit it as his reputation depends on him being right about these kinds of things. He has no choice but to stand his ground on this even if other evidence is presented.
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Anyone interest in doing a thread for pragmatists around this topic? I feel like this conversation just gets bogged down with judgment. The fun continually gets sucked out of a thread like a vaccum because people end up having to defend their pragmatism on the topic and skeptics continue to call out pragmatists.
Happy to take it to a new thread, private DM's, or another platform. Just message me if you're interested and I can get something going if there's enough interest.
Bogging down conversations appears to be how certain users spend their summers. Not sure why, I guess they get a kick out of it.
To each their own, but devoting that much of your finite existence to discouraging the exchange of thoughts and ideas seems like a waste of time with no redeeming value. In all that time spent, you could be adding value to the world in some way, or at least be participating in constructive discussions. But instead these individuals choose to waste it, for what amounts to what i would gather is fleeting petty pleasure.
For the rest of us, collectively trying to solve these mysteries and exploring possibilities, it can hopefully provide an opportunity to learn something.
I've enjoyed your contributions, so please keep posting whatever you dig up in the public thread.
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Anyone interest in doing a thread for pragmatists around this topic? I feel like this conversation just gets bogged down with judgment. The fun continually gets sucked out of a thread like a vaccum because people end up having to defend their pragmatism on the topic and skeptics continue to call out pragmatists.
Happy to take it to a new thread, private DM's, or another platform. Just message me if you're interested and I can get something going if there's enough interest.
For the rest of us, collectively trying to solve these mysteries and exploring possibilities, it can hopefully provide an opportunity to learn something.
I agree, it's a fun topic - it should be fun, open to suggestions, and progressively polite on the 'out there' vibe of the whole thing. Always ready to learn something if it's legitimate evidence either way. It may end up being the biggest and greatest story mankind has ever known, and we may very well be alive to see it.
