I'm still waiting for the Tic Tac UAP mystery to be solved. Until then I will keep an open mind to all possibilities. That includes being called whatever term someone would come up with for me because I happen to have a belief in UFO's. Bring it on!
Last edited by Snuffleupagus; 07-30-2023 at 08:14 PM.
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I think where people lose me is that people suggest that Fravor or Graves are experts on what human capabilities are based on the programs they have worked on.
Why would you be lost?
Ryan Graves worked for BAE Systems on programs with both DARPA and AFRL. Hopefully don't have to explain what DARPA AND AFRL do. He also worked for Quantum Generative Materials who research and design materials for advanced electronics, propulsion, and power systems for the military.
As mentioned earlier David Fravor worked for Northrop Grumman and continues to be a SME consultant on mission management systems for manned and unmanned vehicles.
Both have worked for some of the biggest military contractors to the government because of their expertise on airframes and systems and on some of the most important tech our government has. Of course everything is compartmentalized so they would only know aspects of the tech they are working on. So I'm curious where you'd be lost here, or were you not aware of their work after they left the military?
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They haven’t been involved with the crash recovery programs and the reverse engineering of alien tech.
This seems to indicate you are now on board with the potential of recovery and reverse engineering and the whole alien tech angle.
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So if they haven’t been involved and have no knowledge of the reverse engineering programs why should we believe them as experts in Human capacity. Why isn’t it just as likely that the hidden programs are Human developed craft wrll beyond peoples current understanding vs alien craft beyond human understanding.
Their involvement with interests in the ongoing development of new tech?
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Every argument made can replace the word top secret alien with top secret human and all the logic still holds.
It's possible. No one has denied that. The problem is there is no indication of human developed tech that performs remotely close to that of the vehicles in question. The US, Russia, and China are obviously the big dogs when it comes to R&D and all three nations are scrambling to figure out hypersonic travel close to double digits, which is about 1/3 of what these UAPs were tracked by three different radar arrays in the Nimitz engagement. Considering the X-15 is still the acknowledged king of the hill for validated hypersonic flight at mach 6.7 and 354,200 feet (beyond the Karman line), a record set in 1967, and the best hypersonic missile - the Kinzhal - hit mach 3.6, it would be a massive technological leap. Not saying it's impossible but would require a massive leap.
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Originally Posted by jammies
To illustrate why believing that aliens are the only explanation is absurd, why can't these objects be time travelers? Or humans from a parallel world? Or secret military tech? Or hoaxes? Disinformation by the American government intended to indicate to foreign powers that they possess secret military tech? The direct manipulation of observers' minds by psychics? Hallucinogenics being tested on unsuspecting subjects by the CIA?
No one - NO ONE - has said aliens are the ONLY explanation. Some of the things you bring up could indeed be possibilities to some of the events. No one has dismissed any of the explanations.
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Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
No one - NO ONE - has said aliens are the ONLY explanation. Some of the things you bring up could indeed be possibilities to some of the events. No one has dismissed any of the explanations.
No one has brought them up to be dismissed, either. You're being disingenuous, the argument has largely been between those who believe the American government is hiding evidence of alien visitors (like you) vs those who don't.
I'm certainly open to arguing in favour of time travelers though, as it neatly explains why the conspiracy has never been exposed - they just go back and change history every time someone talks. The Morlocks are among us - they want to steal our precious bodily fluids and kidnap our fertile women to repopulate the end of time!
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No one has brought them up to be dismissed, either. You're being disingenuous, the argument has largely been between those who believe the American government is hiding evidence of alien visitors (like you) vs those who don't.
I'm certainly open to arguing in favour of time travelers though, as it neatly explains why the conspiracy has never been exposed - they just go back and change history every time someone talks. The Morlocks are among us - they want to steal our precious bodily fluids and kidnap our fertile women to repopulate the end of time!
My hang up is that this alien species is super advanced, but can be picked up easily on 2004 era radar. Plus mirror movements on inferior aircraft. Then one crashes and there is no self destruct or retrieval of the technology or pilots.
I guess if their species doesn’t really care I guess. However does make you wonder why they don’t just make contact as opposed to hiding sort of.
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
It's a plausible explanation though, It's funny you want proof it's not alien made whereas the proof should be the other way around.
Reminds me of what bible thumpers say, "show me proof God doesn't exist"
If it's a plausible explanation, why hasn't it been universally accepted? Should it not be a shut and closed case by now?
At the same time you are quick to dismiss some of what Lanny posts or some that I have posted in the past because it doesn't agree with your narrative.
As for God, I was a member of a Church for many years. You can't prove a faith and that's all religion is. You're welcome.
I believe that we will never know the truth/explanation in regards to the 5% of cases unexplained. Fravor and like got a chance to tell their story but their attempts to get to the bottom of the UAP mystery is a waste of time IMO. I don't think the govt is telling us everything and I have my doubts we will ever get the truth.
I think the goal with this UAP initiative should be to provide a safe channel for anybody with inside knowledge to be able to step forward and provide that information, be able to have the sources privately confirmed, then the relevant information brought forward to the public by the third party without the insiders names being released.
Obviously with it being this wide open (including names and faces and testimonies) you'll never reach the rock bottom of the truth because the military and/or government won't sign off on it. If the type of things that Grusch alludes to are true, then it would make any details highly classified. And if it is untrue, then the real truth of what's going on would probably still be classified.
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Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent
I think the goal with this UAP initiative should be to provide a safe channel for anybody with inside knowledge to be able to step forward and provide that information, be able to have the sources privately confirmed, then the relevant information brought forward to the public by the third party without the insiders names being released.
A safe channel is definitely a good start. Too many incidents in the past have gone unreported due to shaming and ridicule and in rare cases a loss of employment. The complaint has always been that we don't have enough data to investigate these cases.
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Obviously with it being this wide open (including names and faces and testimonies) you'll never reach the rock bottom of the truth because the military and/or government won't sign off on it. If the type of things that Grusch alludes to are true, then it would make any details highly classified. And if it is untrue, then the real truth of what's going on would probably still be classified.
Given the history behind the govt and military keeping secrets on top secret air craft projects in he past, it's plausible to think there are other projects that the govt isn't telling us.
Until such things can be proven or disproven, all each of us brings to the table is our perspective. From skeptic through to believer. No matter how hard you believe in your position, you can't prove yours to be the truth, nor do you have enough information to disprove another's. Which is why I think we need to approach the topic respectfully.
The thing is people who are open minded about this are saying "let's see, I want to know", whereas there is a peanut gallery here that is saying "that's absurd, and entertaining that is absurd"
One is harmless, while the other is bordering on brash at times. At least, when it's repeated over and over to dissuade others from debating it further.
But that debate is good. Open discussion is good. Dissecting ideas is good.
Mocking topics or a debate as a whole is just poor form on a forum, where things are meant to be discussed.
Taking the cynical view is fine if you're up to fighting for your position making arguments. Circling back to "that's absurd because it just is" is some lazy debating. If it's so blatantly obvious that the idea of non-human activity going on is just fantasy, then winning that debate should be easy. But these posters resort to spitting on the game board, rather than playing. And that's what kills the productive discussion that's actually fun to read.
And at the end of the day, both sides are merely theorizing here. And believing 'harder' in your position unfortunately still isn't giving you the upper hand in terms of how the information stacks up for/against. And the only real, hard truth is just that.
Participate in the debate. If the believers need to be held in check in your view, then play the game and debate them. It's a perfect opportunity for that. But show some good sportsmanship and respect in doing it.
The air of judgment from some in that peanut gallery segment, while they themselves can't prove anything but only hypothesize and theorize all the same, is totally unnecessary though.
It would be nice to just scrutinize the information presented rather than make this a my beliefs vs your beliefs thing.
I just want to read more about what's trickling in on the topic, and debate/critique that without wading through "you're dumb and this is dumb" posts.
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If it's a plausible explanation, why hasn't it been universally accepted? Should it not be a shut and closed case by now?
Because there's no evidence to prove him right. He's merely suggesting what could be. That's the easy part, just like saying it's aliens. Science be like that.
His argument about glare and the way the camera corrects rotation makes total sense, and the examples where he showed similar glares looked really comparable. I am pretty convinced that he is correct and that the object was not shaped or maneuvering the way it looks. He didn't debunk it as being a UAP though and stated that it could still be an interesting object.
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Originally Posted by DownInFlames
Because there's no evidence to prove him right. He's merely suggesting what could be. That's the easy part, just like saying it's aliens. Science be like that.
He's asking me to accept his narrative and that's the problem I have. Why can't we have disagreement's without all the insults and mocking tones that gets thrown around in this thread.
A non believer would most likely want a crashed or intact UFO as proof. Same goes for Aliens, dead or alive. They wouldn't be wrong in asking for that.
I would like to see the science community and the govt and NASA work together to find a common answer to what these UAP's are that pilots are reporting. Chances are probably good that they are. Until then I'm going to wait and reserve my judgements until then.
