Brad Treliving needs to go

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Which series did goalies really cost us? IIRC COL and DAL it wasn't an issue until elimination games (and was a bright spot before that). Against ANA our GF were 2, 2, 4, 1. Only 2 of those at EVS. Goaltending could have helped us steal that series, but it was only part of the reason we lost.

Goalies are voodoo. How many teams in the league are really, really confident in their goalies down the stretch?

TBL. ANA (irrelevant). WPG. VGK (though I'm not sure how confident they'd be with just one of them). Maybe COL - Grubauer's numbers are pretty darn good the last few years.

I'd argue that most years there are only 5-7 teams with great goaltending, and another 15-20 where it's okay, but questionable.

This year should be evidence enough that goaltending was never the thing holding this group back.

I do agree goaltenders are voodoo which is why I've been against using a lot of assets on goaltenders. I remember Elliotte Friedman doing a hit way back on The Fan 960 saying something to the effect of "I like how you guys are drafting a lot of goaltenders right now" and I remember snorting in derision with that take.

I mean the best of the bunch in terms of home grown goaltenders has been David Rittich and he was free which I understand isn't always the norm. But the Flames have depleted very important draft capital on goaltenders which I think could've been better spent to fill holes elsewhere. Just one or maybe even two quality NHL skaters could be helping this team currently as we speak.


The 2nd rounder on Mason McDonald in 2014
The 2nd rounder on Tyler Parsons in 2016
The 2nd rounder on Brian Elliott in 2016
The condition 2nd rounder on Mike Smith in 2017 which might have turned into a 3rd?


If goaltenders are so voodoo, then why expend so much draft capital on the above, especially stop gaps like Elliott and Smith with very little term? I would lay that on the feet of Treliving who like I've said before, went all in too early. He trades for Dougie Hamilton in the offseason and the Flames end up missing the playoffs badly the next season. He then goes on to trade the 35th pick in the draft (Jordan Kyrou) the next offseason for 1 year of Brian Elliott. That ended up poorly, so then he goes after Mike Smith the following offseason and then the Flames end up missing the playoffs again. It's like, were the Flames really a Brian Elliott or a Mike Smith away from winning the Cup?

Chasing goalie after goalie just ended up being a foolish endeavour in hindsight and now the Flames finally have themselves a legit #1 and the other holes in the lineup couldn't be more apparent.

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's pretty much me.

I'd add to that the drum I keep beating, which is the paramount issue on the team right now is that they had their first line dry up, which I don't think many saw coming.

Adding the likes of Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane to that base should have given them the top six needed to compete.

Didn't happen, but I don't know of any that suggested it wouldn't prior to the two players losing their five on five abilities to produce.

I just get the feeling that the GM is a guy that learns from mistakes, would seem almost silly to break in a new one and go through that same process. I guess if they could do at GM what they did at the coach level and bring in a hockey hall of fame level architect you have to look at it, but short of that stay with what they have.

I just don't see that at all. It's almost funny the way BT continues to trip over the same ottoman like Dick Van Dyke.

Terrible free agent signings, terrible bargain bin coaching hires, can't find a reliable starting goaltender, might as well forget about the right side of the roster etc.

He's over his head.

A cap team that can't/won't make the playoffs and a core that never gets better.

I think the players have quit on BT and not the coaches.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The most Flames thing ever would be for them to cut bait on Treliving after 7 unsuccessful years, and have it turn out that he had finally learned how to be a successful NHL GM.

I can totally see him ending up in another GM role and ending up being the front office equivalent of St Louis or Savard, and building a perennial contentender/cup winner somewhere else.

Perhaps it's part in parcel with brand new GMs. They end up making mistakes their first go around and then know what not to do the next time around. Perhaps a more veteran GM could've seen the flaws that Brad didn't see and perhaps Brad does it right the next time around.

But one thing I would like to see if Brad does stick around, nuke most of his pro scouting staff. They need a different set of eyes out there. This team needs to spare no expense in finding the best scouts who can recognize talent/ability/skills and etc. I heard Brian Burke once say in an interview that he couldn't scout players and see "it" right away, which he implied that there are other scouts who can. So this organization needs more scouts who have that innate ability to see "it," those who can distinguish the greats from the very good.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

I just don't see that at all. It's almost funny the way BT continues to trip over the same ottoman like Dick Van Dyke.

Terrible free agent signings, terrible bargain bin coaching hires, can't find a reliable starting goaltender, might as well forget about the right side of the roster etc.

He's over his head.

A cap team that can't/won't make the playoffs and a core that never gets better.

I think the players have quit on BT and not the coaches.

Thats an interesting take. How many RFA negotiations went late into the summer? Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Kylington, Monahan...Thats 4 of top 6 forwards and the team has trouble scoring. With Warrener saying the dressing is toxic, wouldn't be surprised if your theory is correct.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's pretty much me.

I'd add to that the drum I keep beating, which is the paramount issue on the team right now is that they had their first line dry up, which I don't think many saw coming.

Adding the likes of Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane to that base should have given them the top six needed to compete.

Didn't happen, but I don't know of any that suggested it wouldn't prior to the two players losing their five on five abilities to produce.

I just get the feeling that the GM is a guy that learns from mistakes, would seem almost silly to break in a new one and go through that same process. I guess if they could do at GM what they did at the coach level and bring in a hockey hall of fame level architect you have to look at it, but short of that stay with what they have.

I actually think the signs were there for a quite while that the first line had the potential to "dry up." First off, they put a heavy reliance on the winger to do a lot of the work of a centerman, that's not ideal. Their even strength scoring dropped off twice in two consecutive Anaheim playoff series. They have struggled to produce when lined up with certain players in the past, suggesting that they're right wing dependent and stronger as a complete line rather than just a pair. When games are played in the mud and become tight checking, these 2 have shown the propensity to disappear. They're also very rush scoring dependent and have been for as long as I can remember, which is difficult to do in the playoffs, so that could easily explain why they struggle so much in the playoffs. The biggest issue of all seems to be the 1-2-2 strategy, drop a couple bodies back and clog up the neutral their line is completely useless regardless of who the winger is and they still haven't been able to find a remedy to this.

Personally, for me, I was done with the Gaudreau-Monahan pair in 2019. I wanted to see the two split after another lacklustre finish to the regular season and the complete disaster that was the Avs-Flames series.

So, in my opinion, there have been plenty of signs, albeit some very subtle. But I think we should just shrug our shoulders and give Brad and hi braintrust a mulligan. They're paid big money to research, speculate and forecast, so they're absolutely liable for Gaudreau and Monahan's current predicament.

[djsFlames]

Just ####ing nuke this thing.

I much rather be in the same shoes as Ottawa with a glut of young skilled players and nowhere to go but up.

Potential is a better alternative than this.

If the existing culture is permeated with me-first attitude then rip out enough of the existing players in that mould that there is enough new blood to start a new culture that Sutter can instill.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

I just don't see that at all. It's almost funny the way BT continues to trip over the same ottoman like Dick Van Dyke.

Terrible free agent signings, terrible bargain bin coaching hires, can't find a reliable starting goaltender, might as well forget about the right side of the roster etc.

He's over his head.

A cap team that can't/won't make the playoffs and a core that never gets better.

I think the players have quit on BT and not the coaches.

Terrible free agent signings; Frolik, Ryan, Tanev, Markstrom

Terrible bargain bin coaching hires; see current coach

Starting Goaltender; see current goaltender

Forget about the right side of the roster; Anderson, Tanev, Lindholm

These criticisms your trotting out are lame. Half of them no longer apply, and the others are made in a vacuum of evidence. Weak.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Just ####ing nuke this thing.

I much rather be in the same shoes as Ottawa with a glut of young skilled players and nowhere to go but up.

Potential is a better alternative than this.

If the existing culture is permeated with me-first attitude then rip out enough of the existing players in that mould that there is enough new blood to start a new culture that Sutter can instill.

I think the team more or less has to rip down a few key parts (Gio, Johnny, Monahan), because yeah - what are they selling us next season when fans come back?

“We kept the gang together! We know they’ve won 1 round in 8 years, but this time around we’ve signed UFA beast Joel Armia! He’ll tie it all together. He even shoots right!”

It’s time to sell us on hope for a brighter future, because this core is nowhere near being talented enough.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Terrible free agent signings; Frolik, Ryan, Tanev, Markstrom

Terrible bargain bin coaching hires; see current coach

Starting Goaltender; see current goaltender

Forget about the right side of the roster; Anderson, Tanev, Lindholm

These criticisms your trotting out are lame. Half of them no longer apply, and the others are made in a vacuum of evidence. Weak.

See current standings.

[EVERLAST]

Darryl Sutter said the blueprint is here.
Now unless Darryls just playing nice then he actually said these words.

I think Darryl is impeccable with his word. He has my faith and trust 100% .

I think it's time the players are held accountable and it's about F ing time.
How long have we heard from how many coaches , analysts , armchair GMs , the media that something is sorely missing on this team.?

Just finished watching the last dance ....one thing MJ wouldn't stand for was losing and what that man did 6 times in 8 years was wow....not to mention that Phil Jackson was a phenomenal coach and he had the best players 100% loyalty.

We all saw what Darryl did in 04 with Jarome and several others .

I'm still to this day disappointed that 2005 didn't get played. We would have been back in the final.....I know it.

That team learned what it would take and Darryl knew what he could get from our roster.

I hope we can just get back to normal at this point because COVID is seriously harming every living being on this planet and I feel kinda selfish moaning and bitching about my team not even contending .

[ComixZone]

I read that as “just watched Save the Last Dance”.

...was super confused...

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Terrible free agent signings; Frolik, Ryan, Tanev, Markstrom

Terrible bargain bin coaching hires; see current coach

Starting Goaltender; see current goaltender

Forget about the right side of the roster; Anderson, Tanev, Lindholm

These criticisms your trotting out are lame. Half of them no longer apply, and the others are made in a vacuum of evidence. Weak.

You must know he is referring to the absolutely obvious lack of a top line right wing, and that the Flames are playing Lindholm at C

Weak, indeed

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Darryl Sutter said the blueprint is here.
Now unless Darryls just playing nice then he actually said these words.

I think Darryl is impeccable with his word. He has my faith and trust 100% .

I think it's time the players are held accountable and it's about F ing time.
How long have we heard from how many coaches , analysts , armchair GMs , the media that something is sorely missing on this team.?

Just finished watching the last dance ....one thing MJ wouldn't stand for was losing and what that man did 6 times in 8 years was wow....not to mention that Phil Jackson was a phenomenal coach and he had the best players 100% loyalty.

We all saw what Darryl did in 04 with Jarome and several others .

I'm still to this day disappointed that 2005 didn't get played. We would have been back in the final.....I know it.

That team learned what it would take and Darryl knew what he could get from our roster.

I hope we can just get back to normal at this point because COVID is seriously harming every living being on this planet and I feel kinda selfish moaning and bitching about my team not even contending .

'05 not being played hurt the Flames and their fans more than any other team.

Jarome would have 40-50 more goals to his name as well.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Terrible free agent signings; Frolik, Ryan, Tanev, Markstrom

Terrible bargain bin coaching hires; see current coach

Starting Goaltender; see current goaltender

Forget about the right side of the roster; Anderson, Tanev, Lindholm

These criticisms your trotting out are lame. Half of them no longer apply, and the others are made in a vacuum of evidence. Weak.

His comment was about the idea that Brad learns from his mistakes. There is almost no evidence that that statement is true. If he remains out GM I hope it becomes true. He tried to move a 1st round pick for Jason Zucker right at the deadline two years after he dropped a boatload of picks on Hamonic and in reaction to not getting Stone earlier in the day. His biggest mistake is trading high draft picks for non-impact players and he tried to do that again two years ago. In a league where successful teams are getting increasingly younger he loves trading young assets for older players or signing older players and for a team that is nowhere close to winning a championship.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You must know he is referring to the absolutely obvious lack of a top line right wing, and that the Flames are playing Lindholm at C

Weak, indeed

Okay, where is this top line RW and what is that costing you? Better not include a 1st AaronGavey would fill his diapers

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think the team more or less has to rip down a few key parts (Gio, Johnny, Monahan), because yeah - what are they selling us next season when fans come back?

“We kept the gang together! We know they’ve won 1 round in 8 years, but this time around we’ve signed UFA beast Joel Armia! He’ll tie it all together. He even shoots right!”

It’s time to sell us on hope for a brighter future, because this core is nowhere near being talented enough.

Its the perfect time to do it with the new building due in three years.

I'm certain that selling the fans on the new highly touted young talents they bring in will be more effective than stretching out this core another couple years until its inevitable demise.

We need a couple Stutzles in here, young and creative guys to get fans out of their seats, that we can salivate over the trajectory of. There is nothing creative in how the current group plays. And I think the composure of this core rubs off negatively on guys like Dube and Mangiapane.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

His comment was about the idea that Brad learns from his mistakes. There is almost no evidence that that statement is true. If he remains out GM I hope it becomes true. He tried to move a 1st round pick for Jason Zucker right at the deadline two years after he dropped a boatload of picks on Hamonic and in reaction to not getting Stone earlier in the day. His biggest mistake is trading high draft picks for non-impact players and he tried to do that again two years ago. In a league where successful teams are getting increasingly younger he loves trading young assets for older players or signing older players and for a team that is nowhere close to winning a championship.

You complain about there being no evidence of Treliving learning from his mistakes, and then point to trades that didn't even happen two years ago to make your point...

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[1qqaaz]

It's hard to say whether Treliving has learned from his mistakes without knowing the thought process behind each decision.

On paper, the decision to sign Tanev was somewhat similar to the decision to sign Brouwer. Both over 30, similar term and AAV. But Tanev is a defensemen and a completely different player.

Did Treliving not learn from his mistake since he signed another post-30 vet to a mid-level contract? Or did he change something in this thought process that resulted in a better signing?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Okay, where is this top line RW and what is that costing you? Better not include a 1st AaronGavey would fill his diapers

Says the guy who actually lists Rasmus Anderson as proof that Treliving has filled out the right hand side of the roster. Rasmus Anderson who is 6th on the Flames in shorthanded time on ice per game by dmen and 52nd out of 207 dmen in points per game as an offensive defenceman. Brad grabbed him for the steal of 4.55 million a year. Having the ability to put a body on the ice does not mean that body is any good or would be a contributor on an elite team.

Brad has built a bad forward group, a mediocre backend and an average tandem between the pipes. He has done this while having one of the poorer prospect pools in the league.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You complain about there being no evidence of Treliving learning from his mistakes, and then point to trades that didn't even happen two years ago to make your point...

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A trade that did not happen because the NHL league office ####ed it up. Both Brad and Fenton were upset st the time that it did not go through and pieces of the deal have been reported in the media. My point is that if the teams had filled out the paperwork right or the league accepted it, Brad's learning curve was trading his 3rd first round pick in 5 years away and getting Jason Zucker in return.