I've already taken a call like this tonight. This is why, when I get a call like this, I don't hang up until the officer and the caller are talking to each other.
Thanks for doing this. My sister had someone break into her house and she hid in a basement closet after calling 911. While hiding, the 911 operator worked to calm her, told her to be silent, and talked her through the noises she was hearing. The operator told her the police had the suspect in custody. Then she was advised that the noises she was hearing were police officers going into the basement to find her. The operator told her the name of the officer in the basement and then an officer identified himself with the corresponding name and she came out of hiding.
My favourite part was the one cop who felt the urge to go check on him was pushed forward to keep moving by another cop.
Nice work boys.
Honestly as much as I hate things that have been happening, this particular incident to me looks more accidental with catastrophic results than the acts with blatant criminal intent. I feel like this is a case of people reacting to the result, rather than the actions.
This is what I see/hear when I view that video.
- man approaches police
- he is shoved back in the stomach and loses his balance, the shove(s) did not appear to be malicious in nature, but I do think with them coming from two different angles it would cause many to lose balance.
- once the cop that appeared to shove the hardest saw blood he immediately started to go to victim
- he is told to keep going forward because protesters are coming to them now
- the officer that told him to move forward gets on his radio and I swear I can hear the word medic said
- then when pushing the press back they tell them there is an emt on scene.
While I believe this event should lead to disciplinary action in the form of a suspension and write up because results do matter, I do not think this is particularly something that should be getting anywhere near the outrage that it is.
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^I watched the video a few times before responding to your post. The man is simultaneously pushed in the stomach and chest. The video commentary mentions holding the line at which point the camera moves to record one white male being surrounded by police. Seriously, it’s not difficult to control a senior citizen. The line was then penetrated by one man. There is no excuse for the actions of the officers on the old man. The officers displayed a serious lack of situational awareness and restraint.
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Someone mentioned “Edmonton” in this thread. Coincidently, here’s the same Knee on neck on a black Edmontonian by an Edmonton police officer, caught on camera two years ago.
What’s worse is that the Edmonton police staff Sargent commenting on this felt that the officer made the adjustment. The victim
Quote:
While the technique is not approved, Langley said he believed the officer didn’t intend for his leg to end up where it did, and that the officer adjusted his position after, at most, 40 seconds. Rukundo estimates he was on the ground for a total of three or four minutes.
Langley said the video appears to show the officer’s leg first making contact with Rukundo’s shoulder blade.
“It is glancing, and it glances off the shoulder blade and ends up across the neck, or the back of the head, whichever it may be,” he said.
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Rukundo said Thursday he was disappointed by the suggestion the officer didn’t intend his actions.
“You can see clearly on the video that (the officer’s shin) wasn’t going to the shoulder, he dropped it.”
He questions why Edmonton police would defend the actions of the officer.
“Seeing them defending themselves like that, and they know there’s people hurt on the other side? That’s just not fair,” he said.
Guess I could ask you the same question then we all go around in circles.
But I read on here long ago that you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. So I am going to stick with that.
I don't pretend to know what happened beyond doubting police side of the story. I look at the input - a call to protect a woman, and an output - the woman is shot by police who was called to protect her. I then humbly posit, that the police massively screwed up at best and is guilty of murder at worst. Aren't they responsible for handling the call? Based on the outcome, wasn't call somewhat mishandled?
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Your post makes perfect sense except for the bolded part. Once police is on the scene and says there's no one around, why would she blindly lash out with the knife?
I'm sorry, I thought I had been clear in my post. At no point in my post did she know or was she aware that police were there.
-Mom hears what she believes is someone around her house. Calls boyfriend
-Boyfriend calls police.
-Police go to scene
-Police walk around yard to see if someone's there. Mom, who doesn't know they are there, hears the noises that scared her in the first place. She's too scared to look out the window
-Police, having determined that there is no one around, go to door to talk to mom and tell her no one's around they can see.
-Mom, hearing someone knocking on her door after hearing someone walking around her house again, decides to defend herself and her child.
-"Grabs a kitchen knife, throws open the door and blindly lashes out with the knife." (as worded in my OP)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SebC
Shouldn't this be part of training and procedure, then? It sounds as if you do this on your own initiative.
It can't be. It's a judgement call. If I have the ability, I have no problem staying on the phone with someone until police arrive. But this kind of call may have a response time of 5-20 minutes and...the mom is currently safe in the house. If the 911 call queue is 3-10 deep say, I've got a judgement call to make. I'll try to hold the line...but sometimes I have to leave someone who's currently as safe as can be, to help someone else. The RCMP have it even worse, as their call centers are chronically understaffed at the best of times.
It also really only works if the person calls themselves. In the NB case, there was no operator to stay on the phone with her, available or not, as she didn't call, the boyfriend did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwkayaker
Thanks for doing this. My sister had someone break into her house and she hid in a basement closet after calling 911. While hiding, the 911 operator worked to calm her, told her to be silent, and talked her through the noises she was hearing. The operator told her the police had the suspect in custody. Then she was advised that the noises she was hearing were police officers going into the basement to find her. The operator told her the name of the officer in the basement and then an officer identified himself with the corresponding name and she came out of hiding.
I'm glad to hear that one of my colleagues was able to help your sister in that trying time.
Last edited by WhiteTiger; 06-05-2020 at 12:36 AM.
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Honestly as much as I hate things that have been happening, this particular incident to me looks more accidental with catastrophic results than the acts with blatant criminal intent. I feel like this is a case of people reacting to the result, rather than the actions.
This is what I see/hear when I view that video.
- man approaches police
- he is shoved back in the stomach and loses his balance, the shove(s) did not appear to be malicious in nature, but I do think with them coming from two different angles it would cause many to lose balance.
- once the cop that appeared to shove the hardest saw blood he immediately started to go to victim
- he is told to keep going forward because protesters are coming to them now
- the officer that told him to move forward gets on his radio and I swear I can hear the word medic said
- then when pushing the press back they tell them there is an emt on scene.
While I believe this event should lead to disciplinary action in the form of a suspension and write up because results do matter, I do not think this is particularly something that should be getting anywhere near the outrage that it is.
I would agree that in that case, an incident like that ends up without injury 9/10 times. But in the case of shoving a 75 year old, the odds of injury increase dramatically.
Very poor judgement, and not really a heat of the moment decision either. They had time to see him approach and realize he was not a threat, and chose to physically remove him anyhow.
The consequences they will have to face, as anyone should the moment they decide to lay their hands on another in any sort of forceful way.
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The 8 items that can be implemented to reduce deaths by 72% are
Ban Chokeholds and stranglehold’s
Require Deescalation
Warm before shooting
Exhaust alternatives before shooting
Require intervention
Require use of force continuum
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Comprehensive reporting.
It based on data analysis of the policies of police departments across US cities. Implementing doesn’t increase officer fatalities either.
The crazy thing about this list is it has nothing to do with race. Just better police procedures and you can eliminate 3/4 of deaths.
I would agree that in that case, an incident like that ends up without injury 9/10 times. But in the case of shoving a 75 year old, the odds of injury increase dramatically.
Very poor judgement, and not really a heat of the moment decision either. They had time to see him approach and realize he was not a threat, and chose to physically remove him anyhow.
The consequences they will have to face, as anyone should the moment they decide to lay their hands on another in any sort of forceful way.
I do not disagree that it was poor judgment and like I said there should be some punishment, but I do not think they warrant a firing or charges being laid.
On a separate note all three of the other officers charged in the Floyd case have turned on Chauvin and one is cooperating with the DOJ apparently
How noble of these Little Eichmanns to turn on Chauvin after they themselves were also charged. Too bad none of them had the courage and basic human decency to do the right thing when Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck for nine minutes.
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Someone mentioned “Edmonton” in this thread. Coincidently, here’s the same Knee on neck on a black Edmontonian by an Edmonton police officer, caught on camera two years ago.
I think if people started digging they could find a whole heap of videos where pressure is applied by a knee/shin to a neck. Most of the time they don't do it for long enough to kill the person.
I was detained by Edmonton police at South Common this way in 2014, but was released and eventually able to leave the scene. Shin to the neck for maybe 8-12 seconds. Really makes you panic and immediately start to resist for a sec, I can't imagine 9 minutes.
Buffalo man remains in serious condition, but stable. The video has 40 million views. In a few hours. 40 million views.
Maybe, maybe, American conservatives will finally wake up and accept there is a problem with their police forces because the victim this time was a white boomer instead of a young black man. I'm really not feeling too hopeful these days, though.
Maybe, maybe, American conservatives will finally wake up and accept there is a problem with their police forces because the victim this time was a white boomer instead of a young black man. I'm really not feeling too hopeful these days, though.
The little white teenage girl covered in blood because police shot her while she was walking home with groceries and not part of the protest... yeah if that didn't do it then an old boomer won't.
How noble of these Little Eichmanns to turn on Chauvin after they themselves were also charged. Too bad none of them had the courage and basic human decency to do the right thing when Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck for nine minutes.
I'm conflicted. One of the guys was an officer for four days, asked twice to his superior training officer (Chauvin) if they should turn him over and expressed concern about Floyd entering delirium but was shot down, and would later administer CPR to Floyd in the ambulance. At least that's how his attorney presents it. Of course he helped restrained Floyd while he was ultimately murdered and anyone not wearing blue would be charged with the same thing as this officer (well actually much more) and a man is dead in part because of his actions.
Following orders, deferring to authority, it shouldn't happen in situations like this but we know it does. The Stanford Prison experiment shows how much the average person will defer to authority and abandon their own morals. It's unfortunate, but probably the vast vast vast amount of new officers put with Chauvin that day would have ended with the same result. I'm far from suggesting he shouldn't face consequences for his actions (or inactions) but I also do find myself feeling sorry for him because his life is now ruined. I guess, akin to a speeder who runs over a pedestrian? I'm not excusing their actions but they didn't set out to kill someone and now have to live with it (which is better than Floyd gets).
More about the issues with the system, Chauvin and his partner (both with multiple complaints) shouldn't be the one training these guys. They clearly shouldn't have even been on the force, but the police unions will fight to keep them until this happens.
At the very least it will (hopefully) make the next cop put in this situation to question authority and act with their morals (if they have any) rather than try to use following orders as an excuse. Might start to see some actual reasonable judgement and push back against thug cops if individual cops start being held accountable for their actions/inactions. Might be less inclined to stick up and lie for Officer Bill if the next time you're on a assignment with him, you're afraid he's going to punch some innocent bystander in the face and have you fired/charged for helping him out.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 06-05-2020 at 05:19 AM.
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Honestly as much as I hate things that have been happening, this particular incident to me looks more accidental with catastrophic results than the acts with blatant criminal intent. I feel like this is a case of people reacting to the result, rather than the actions.
This is what I see/hear when I view that video.
- man approaches police
- he is shoved back in the stomach and loses his balance, the shove(s) did not appear to be malicious in nature, but I do think with them coming from two different angles it would cause many to lose balance.
- once the cop that appeared to shove the hardest saw blood he immediately started to go to victim
- he is told to keep going forward because protesters are coming to them now
- the officer that told him to move forward gets on his radio and I swear I can hear the word medic said
- then when pushing the press back they tell them there is an emt on scene.
While I believe this event should lead to disciplinary action in the form of a suspension and write up because results do matter, I do not think this is particularly something that should be getting anywhere near the outrage that it is.
That's weird. I guess if decking a 75 year old doesn't seem criminal the Buffalo pdf's description of the incident as a "trip and fall" would make sense.
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The power of police unions is something else, to even try and make that "he tripped and fell" statement with a straight face, in the camera phone era no less, is spectacularly arrogant. All of these incidents just make you ponder what cops were able to get away with in the era without camera phones and body cams. At this point mandatory body cams should be the minimum we see out of this.
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Regarding thug - go read threads on Evander Kane vs other players. I guarantee the word thug is used more regarding Kane.
You can question whether it's racist or not, but it is clearly used as a racial stereotype. Similar to the white NFL or MLB player being gritty and smart, or the Dominican baseball player being selfish and a showboat.
